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You're painting a very unbalanced picture. > There is a small faction of the Bitcoin community working exceptionally hard to prevent any block size increase.

by nadaviv 10y ago

You're painting a very unbalanced picture. > There is a small faction of the Bitcoin community working exceptionally hard to prevent any block size increase. This small faction is composed of nearly ~all the technical experts we have in the Bitcoin space, over 100 businesses and projects that support SegWit, the majority of bitcoin users that I'm personally familiar with, the majority of full-nodes on the network (~85%), and the vast majority by pretty much every metric you choose. https://bitcoincore.org/en/segwit_adoption/ https://bitcoincore.org/en/segwit_adoption/ https://bitcoincore.org/en/supporters/ https://bitcoincore.org/en/supporters/ https://coin.dance/nodes/share https://coin.dance/nodes/share https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases > /r/bitcoin is now just an echo chamber where yes men regurgitate the agenda of a select few. r/bitcoin is the largest and most active bitcoin community by far. It had to start engaging in more heavy-handed moderation when the voting bots, sockpuppet accounts and other manipulation made it impossible to conduct productive discussions. Its sad, but I don't really see an alternative. https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4biob5/research_into_instantaneous_vote_behavior_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4biob5/research_in... https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/a-closer-look-at-reddit-vote-manipulation-about-bitcoin-1458682699/ https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/a-closer-look-at-reddit... https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3hf5z7/determining_manipulation_via_sock_puppet_accounts/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3hf5z7/determining... https://news.bitcoin.com/the-block-size-debate-and-sock-puppet/ https://news.bitcoin.com/the-block-size-debate-and-sock-pupp... https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/5n3wsw/birds_by_bitcoincom_get_paid_to_retweet_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/5n3wsw/birds_by_bitcoi...

pmorici 10y ago
You don't deny that censorship is taking place you are just rationalizing it by calling it "moderation". Lets be clear what is going on there goes way beyond what is commonly understood as moderation. They are systematically silencing a large segment of the Bitcoin community. If your side really had the support you claim the censorship wouldn't be needed.
- nadaviv 10y ago
  Do you think HN has no moderation? Every online community has moderation to some degree. The manipulation, voting bots and endless stream of sockpuppet accounts made it impossible for people like me to discuss ideas and proposals, the signal-the-noise ratio was unbearable to the point of stopping productive discussions to an halt. Yes, moderation sucks. But no moderation sucks harder. I don't really see a better approach to this. If you have some time, I truly recommend you to read the "Well-Kept Gardens Die By Pacifism" piece on LessWrong: http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/
  - pmorici 10y ago
    Again, people aren't taking issue with simple moderation. They are taking issue with the fact that certain view points are totally censored from the forum. I would be willing to bet 100% of the comments I've made in this thread would be deleted by moderators in /r/bitcoin simply for the fact that I'm expressing views counter to those they want to promote. I have high confidence they won't be moderated here though. Clearly something is different about /r/biticon censorship vs. HN moderation. The simple fact that some of my comments even have the word "censorship" in them means they will be automatically deleted from /r/bitcion.
    - nadaviv 10y ago
      Comments are not being deleted on r/bitcoin for expressing views, discussing ideas or debating proposals. Comments that promote the use of alternative clients that attempt to alter the bitcoin protocol rules prior to building consensus around the proposal, however, are. An hardfork protocol change that does not have significant support from the community is basically an altcoin that starts from the current UTXO set, and so is considered off-topic for r/bitcoin. Would you say that the r/bitcoin moderators removing posts about ethereum as being off-topic also engage in "censorship"?
      - lawn 10y ago
        Sigh. > Comments are not being deleted on r/bitcoin for expressing views, discussing ideas or debating proposals. Yes they are. > Comments that promote the use of alternative clients that attempt to alter the bitcoin protocol rules prior to building consensus around the proposal, however, are. Comments promoting non-core clients are. Segwit is a disruptive change to the protocol and yet is has been allowed since day one. And also: how are you supposed to building consensus if it's censored? The cognitive dissonance is amazing. > An hardfork protocol change that does not have significant support from the community is basically an altcoin that starts from the current UTXO set, and so is considered off-topic for r/bitcoin. A hardfork doesn't an altcoin make. "Significant support from the community" is a misnomer. Bitcoin is built around nakomoto consensus, not some flimsy community definition. > Would you say that the r/bitcoin moderators removing posts about ethereum as being off-topic also engage in "censorship"? When negative posts are allowed then yes it's obvious.
simulx 10y ago
Segwit is a block size increase. After activation blocks on the block chain will be up to a max of 4MB, with an average of 2.1MB There is no meaningful definition of a block size increase that does not include segwit, which increases the size of blocks on the chain. Most of those devs and businesses are vocally advocating for segwit - a block size increase.

by nadaviv 10y ago

pmorici 10y ago

You don't deny that censorship is taking place you are just rationalizing it by calling it "moderation". Lets be clear what is going on there goes way beyond what is commonly understood as moderation. They are systematically silencing a large segment of the Bitcoin community. If your side really had the support you claim the censorship wouldn't be needed.

nadaviv 10y ago
Do you think HN has no moderation? Every online community has moderation to some degree. The manipulation, voting bots and endless stream of sockpuppet accounts made it impossible for people like me to discuss ideas and proposals, the signal-the-noise ratio was unbearable to the point of stopping productive discussions to an halt. Yes, moderation sucks. But no moderation sucks harder. I don't really see a better approach to this. If you have some time, I truly recommend you to read the "Well-Kept Gardens Die By Pacifism" piece on LessWrong: http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/
- pmorici 10y ago
  Again, people aren't taking issue with simple moderation. They are taking issue with the fact that certain view points are totally censored from the forum. I would be willing to bet 100% of the comments I've made in this thread would be deleted by moderators in /r/bitcoin simply for the fact that I'm expressing views counter to those they want to promote. I have high confidence they won't be moderated here though. Clearly something is different about /r/biticon censorship vs. HN moderation. The simple fact that some of my comments even have the word "censorship" in them means they will be automatically deleted from /r/bitcion.
  - nadaviv 10y ago
    Comments are not being deleted on r/bitcoin for expressing views, discussing ideas or debating proposals. Comments that promote the use of alternative clients that attempt to alter the bitcoin protocol rules prior to building consensus around the proposal, however, are. An hardfork protocol change that does not have significant support from the community is basically an altcoin that starts from the current UTXO set, and so is considered off-topic for r/bitcoin. Would you say that the r/bitcoin moderators removing posts about ethereum as being off-topic also engage in "censorship"?
    - lawn 10y ago
      Sigh. > Comments are not being deleted on r/bitcoin for expressing views, discussing ideas or debating proposals. Yes they are. > Comments that promote the use of alternative clients that attempt to alter the bitcoin protocol rules prior to building consensus around the proposal, however, are. Comments promoting non-core clients are. Segwit is a disruptive change to the protocol and yet is has been allowed since day one. And also: how are you supposed to building consensus if it's censored? The cognitive dissonance is amazing. > An hardfork protocol change that does not have significant support from the community is basically an altcoin that starts from the current UTXO set, and so is considered off-topic for r/bitcoin. A hardfork doesn't an altcoin make. "Significant support from the community" is a misnomer. Bitcoin is built around nakomoto consensus, not some flimsy community definition. > Would you say that the r/bitcoin moderators removing posts about ethereum as being off-topic also engage in "censorship"? When negative posts are allowed then yes it's obvious.

simulx 10y ago

Segwit is a block size increase. After activation blocks on the block chain will be up to a max of 4MB, with an average of 2.1MB There is no meaningful definition of a block size increase that does not include segwit, which increases the size of blocks on the chain. Most of those devs and businesses are vocally advocating for segwit - a block size increase.