7 ms·

Making More Outside The App Store

119 points by shawndumas 10y ago

bsaul 10y ago
App stores for mobile phones were very convenient at start because they provided a safe gateway to curated content, and globally enhanced the quality of what independant developpers released. But now it's clearly a hindrance. I wish the european union would force Apple to enable the installation of other app store (distributing legal software of course) on their device. Actually, a good start would be to have the "don't distribute an app that has the same feature as a preinstalled one" clause declared illegal.
- x0x0 10y ago
  And I hate that idea. I get people in my life to buy ios devices precisely because, even when they try, they are unable to install malware. That is not a feature any other OS has. Particularly the over-easy access to sideloading on android. Just last month my MIL managed to get her bank account password stolen because she used it on her PC and installed who knows what from one of those fake Microsoft support pop-over ads. The solution is to only access bank accounts on ios. It's really a major selling point of the devices.
  - qzervaas 10y ago
    Any explanation for the downvotes?
    - duncanawoods 10y ago
      Not a downvoter but the reasoning that criminal action means we should give up the promise of general computation and freedom to use devices we "own" as we choose for walled gardens that massively enrich corporate gatekeepers is repugnant. We should catch criminals, fix security problems, maximise openness of platforms and competition and distribute wealth to a multitude of small independent creators instead of middlemen rent-seekers.
      - x0x0 10y ago
        Our industry's unparalleled track record of success catching criminals, fixing security problems, creating usable and secure software, and so forth continue to provide a great platform for end users. That's why online account theft, hacking, and malware are increasingly small problems. Abject failure for 20+ years is no reason to believe this won't work any day now.
      - nodamage 10y ago
        So, hypothetically, if Apple/Google decided to reduce their 30% cut to 0%, would you still perceive them as "repugnant" "middlemen rent-seekers"?
        duncanawoods 10y ago
        The argument above for walled-gardens is repugnant because its an argument for a totalitarian police state. Removing rent-seeking does not address anti-competitiveness or destruction of fundamental computational freedoms. Gardens (safe curated places) are nice things to have but if you erect walls preventing us from leaving they become abusive. Rent-seeking is one of those abuses. Let us have many gardens and let them compete for our presence by the value they can bring.
        abecedarius 10y ago
        Somehow, typical prices for software on app stores are considerably lower than independently distributed software was. Apple seems to have succeeded at commoditizing their complements, even ignoring the cut they take. I'm not sure how this got established as the equilibrium, but as a developer I don't want to participate in that role, and as a user I wish there was more great software, and suspect there would be if it hadn't become so commoditized. (I also agree that walled gardens are bad for freedom.)
        nodamage 10y ago
        This is definitely the case on mobile where everything has been driven to 99c or free, but the Mac App Store still has a healthy range of prices, including a bunch of desktop software in the $20-$100 range.
  - dalbasal 10y ago
    I think you're both right. IOS (and to a large extent, android) have genuinely found an OS paradigm that works for unsophisticated users and put more power and confidence in their hands. The appstore is a big part of that. The icon=app rule is another part, where removing an icon removes the app. Users have a much improved understanding of their phone's software on an iphone relative to a windows/osx PC. That said, it also limits the more sophisticated user and puts more power into Apple/Google's hands than I'd like. It's 10 years later now and it's time to fill in some of the holes. Allowing alternative appstores would be a good start and wouldn't affect most users who are happy with the app store as is. Removing anti-competitive curation rules and practices would be good too.
    - bfred_it 10y ago
      Why would Apple give up their 30% margins? It makes no sense. Not until they're somehow forced into it, anyway.
  - andyfleming 10y ago
    I'm not sure why you were downvoted. This is legitimate reasoning and you are contributing to the conversation in a civilized manner. There are absolutely tradeoffs of buying into a walled garden. I personally have mixed feelings. An open ecosystem sounds nice in ways. For example, on my mac, I would be very frustrated if I were locked into only being able to buy software from Apple's App Store. It would be a deal-breaker. However, I've never really found myself frustrated with the iPhone app ecosystem. However, I've definitely been saved hours and hours of family IT support by family members being on iOS.
  - bsaul 10y ago
    I completely agree with that point, and make the same recommendations to people around me for the exact same reason. However, you could very well imagine apple creating a sort of "third party app store guidelines" that would make it compulsory for third party app store to check apps for security violations prior to publishing an app. Apple would then move one layer up. Instead of directly enforcing and distributing apps, it would enforce store basic rules, and leave some rules to others. Pretty much like what you'd do if you were to create a franchise. There are intermediate grounds between "we control everything, and are the only one allowed to push apps" to "we allow everyone to install anything they want". The idea is just to open this part of the market (app distribution) to competition.
  - AnthonyMouse 10y ago
    The only thing required for that is no malware in the app store, not any of Apple's other restrictions on what you can put there. It doesn't even require prohibiting independent app stores, all it requires is that adding one prompt for a separate password which you don't give to your MIL.
    - DasIch 10y ago
      What if an independent app store, fails at adequately stopping malware from getting through? Is Apple going to ban the entire store then? Does Apple get to do that job for those stores instead? If the latter, does the App get reviewed both by Apple and the independent store? Does Apple get a cut in that scenario? How do you install independent app stores to begin with? Do you install them with he App Store? That would put them at a disadvantage similar to how Microsoft put other Browsers at a disadvantage with IE. Do you provide a choice then when you setup the phone? Purely from an anti-trust perspective I can see why the idea of independent app stores might seem appealing at first glance. Thinking about this just for a moment brings up so many questions though and I don't see how you can possibly come up with satisfying answers that lead to good security and a good user experience.
      - devonkim 10y ago
        One way to balance choice and safety is for Apple to share the data in their store and let people create app stores only as long as the store links within Apple's ecosystem. This really would just mean a different skin of sorts but perhaps there's a means of different approaches to app discovery possible.
      - AnthonyMouse 10y ago
        > What if an independent app store, fails at adequately stopping malware from getting through? Then don't use that one. You don't have to use any but Apple's if you don't want to. > How do you install independent app stores to begin with? Do you install them with he App Store? That would put them at a disadvantage similar to how Microsoft put other Browsers at a disadvantage with IE. As opposed to the status quo?
  - tdkl 10y ago
    The solution is education. She should be thankful, not so long ago people would loose their life being stupid and those genes wouldn't pass on. I guess idiocracy is inevitable.
  - Oletros 10y ago
    Perhaps a middle ground is like what you can do on Android, by default is a walled garden without the capability of installing from third party sources but you can enable it with a very big and scary warning
hossbeast 10y ago
This post is about the Mac App Store, not the iOS App Store.
- ge0rg 10y ago
  It took me several paragraphs of wondering how they circumvented the iOS restriction until I realized that. They really should have added "Mac" to the title.
- ci5er 10y ago
  Thank you. Many many things have now been made clear.
kalleboo 10y ago
I still search for apps with Google instead of in the App Store, even for iOS apps, since the App Store is such a terrible user experience (poor search, slow loading, glitchy, limited information compared to websites)
- AsyncAwait 10y ago
  App Store sometimes fails to find the app I am looking for, even if I know the name of the app.
pfranz 10y ago
Someone mentioned it in the page's comments, but I'm really surprised they didn't even caveat what they get for paying Apple 30% (much of this is redundant if they already sold outside of the App Store); download/update infrastructure, payment (and refunds), security (serial numbers and piracy protection), customer support and service support for those things. At least as an individual developer, that's all stuff I wouldn't want to deal with if I was shipping something. Clearly, Apple has dropped the ball on making the App Store compelling. It's sad that a classic indie Mac app brand like Rogue Amoeba only offers one app (Fission) for sale in it.
- ikonst 10y ago
  I think Rogue Amoeba was already doing serial numbers etc. for their other products. re Payments: Have you ever seen how easy Stripe is?
  - pfranz 10y ago
    I did mention that selling apps both in and out of the store requires you to set up many of those things. I was just surprised they didn't even mention it as a caveat because the way the article is worded it sounds like not being in the App Store equals 30% extra profit. I haven't used Stripe (but have heard good things), but it's still not free. With the App store you don't necessarily need a webpage and all of the costs associated with designing, deploying, and maintaining.
- paulkafasis 10y ago
  While I certainly didn't go into depth on this, this line acknowledges the cost of both direct and App Store sales: “Direct sales cost us just a few percent, so each direct sale of Piezo earns almost $5 more than a sale through the Mac App Store.” That “few percent” takes into account the cost of our site and our downloads, as well as handling payment. As far as acknowledging what Apple provides, it's simply not worth very much. The cost of infrastructure is incredibly low (nowhere near the 30% they take), and none of what you list is difficult to manage. Further, any developer who's looking to earn money is going to want to replicate most of that anyway. You should have a website you control to provide information and promote the product (see the many comments about Googling for apps, rather than using the App Store). You also ought to provide customer support for the product itself - Apple certainly doesn't help you there. Once you've got a web site, adding direct downloads is easy. Payment processing and license keys are certainly the most difficult pieces, but anyone making a Mac app can manage them as well. It can all be set up in a manner of days, if not hours. I wouldn't tell a developer that they must steer clear of the Mac App Store, but I absolutely would say they're doing themselves (and their customers) a disservice if they don't also sell their product directly.
glasz 10y ago
the mac is dead. i said it. downvote. i don't care. but it's dead and so is the app store. i hear they're rewriting the entire app store backend, ditching web objects. but i'm having a hard time seeing them rebooting the bloody thing in some serious manner to adress the issues. $200b to spend and just a few things don't get better. it's sad.
- fit2rule 10y ago
  They have to compete with brew cask, in my opinion, and that's just not going to happen in a way that pushes the homebrew developers out of the market. Much better to have community-curation than corporate-curation in my opinion.
  - supercoder 10y ago
    What is competing with brew exactly ?
    - fit2rule 10y ago
      Having an open community which curates apps on a regular and consistent basis instead of a closed hegemony which doesn't have its users interests as a priority.
fit2rule 10y ago
I think one thing that might make a difference in this regard is inclusion in the brew Caskroom list .. I've installed more apps through 'brew cask' than through the Mac App Store, that is for sure, and usually its because I was able to quickly and easily search, locate and discover apps very rapidly with a simple 'brew search' .. its at the point where I consider inclusion in the Caskroom repo's more important than App Store submission at this point. I trust the community software collections a lot more than the 'official Apple' channels, for some reason - I'm sure its not rational, but more just a fear of corporate control and the ultimate denigrating effect it has on the quality of software. Plus there's the whole 'brew update && brew upgrade && brew cleanup && brew doctor' factor, that gives me - rightly or wrongly so - the impression that I have far more control over the software on my system than that granted me by the graces of Apple.
- skinnymuch 10y ago
  I use Cask a ton too. But we have to be in the huge minority. No one I've shown Cask to has ended up using it. I'm mainly talking about slightly above average techies or a few people who are comfortable with the cli. I doubt any paid software listed in Cask has their download numbers change by more than a few percent, if that.
simplehuman 10y ago
Not sure about this. I feel safe and secure thanks to App Store. Won't download any app outside it.
- AsyncAwait 10y ago
  I'd say that you're greatly limiting your choices, the App Store sandbox greatly limits what you app can do.
- charlesism 10y ago
  I wouldn't feel safe and secure without "Little Snitch" installed. Don't look for it on the App Store, it will never be there.
rcarmo 10y ago
I think there is an elephant in the room here, which is that app stores (Mac, iOS or otherwise), besides all the requirements for inclusion (sandboxing, approvals, etc.) have become massively unmanageable dumping grounds, full of junk that is very hard to sift through for the normal customer. Yes, they afford some credibility, trust and security (even though evil devs are constantly pushing the envelope), but even simple mechanisms like search are fundamentally broken on Apple's stores. And it's not just about devs gaming the keyword rankings (I see enough of that when my kids search for games). It's just hopeless. So no wonder RogueAmoeba makes more money off the App Store. Even discounting other factors, their (rather specialized and very, very cool) apps are just easier to find via web search.
- tempodox 10y ago
  There is a massive irony in the fact that Google yields better search results for iOS and Mac apps than the AppStore. I've gotten to the point where I use the AppStore only in absence of alternatives. If Apple wanted to get more into services, the AppStores would be an obvious and easy way to demonstrate their ability and willingness to provide, if not valuable, then at least usable services. And all they do is botch it.
  - gcr 10y ago
    Agreed 100%. The only time I use the App Store is after I know which app I want to install. Discovery is still very poor if you want to find something that wasn't featured.
  - dreamcompiler 10y ago
    Completely agree. AppStore search is now in the same sorry state as web search before Google existed. It desperately needs an innovation that does for app search what PageRank did for web search. Unfortunately, Apple isn't going to let anybody else build it, and I see no indication that Apple is building it themselves.
  - luckman212 10y ago
    Agree with the general sentiment here. AppStore search is badly broken and the system has been gamed to the point of being nearly useless. A site that helps me (no affiliation whatsoever) that at least allows filtering based on release date and "star rating" is https://theappstore.org/ https://theappstore.org/
daadaa 10y ago
I hope that Apple would allow developers submit more freely apps. Taking down every app that have adult content or app that apple feels are competition with their own products is very low from Apple. Why people would like to be in these ghettos, where development is so so restricted? Going out from store is the best way.
k__ 10y ago
PWAs are the future :)
- bfred_it 10y ago
  Have you seen what kind of software Rogue Amoeba produces? They can barely make it work without kernel extensions, let alone browser APIs that would take years to develop and mature.
  - k__ 10y ago
    Sure, but apps like that aren't the majority :)
camtarn 10y ago
For context, the app (Piezo) in question was removed from the Mac App Store (not the iOS App Store, as I first assumed on reading!) by its developers. It's an audio recorder which can record audio from other apps. The App Store introduced a sandbox which prevented the app from working, but they got around that by simply not updating the app and thus retaining the ability to work outside the sandbox. However, other apps introduced changes which broke Piezo, and which needed a fix which couldn't be distributed via App Store, finally killing that methods of distribution. https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2016/02/12/piezo-1-5-arrives-piezo-exits-the-mac-app-store/ https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2016/02/12/piezo-1-5-arrives-...
hellofunk 10y ago
My main concern about releasing outside the app store is the security of licensing. The App Store takes care of that for you, but common licensing systems for Mac and Windows Desktop (like Nalpeiron) are quite expensive. And there would be significant developer time integrating them. Are there better alternatives? Perhaps it is not as hard as I imagine it to be to roll your own payment and licensing service? The App Store is also good if you want to sell app subscriptions. That too would seem complicated to do on your own.

119 points by shawndumas 10y ago

bsaul 10y ago

App stores for mobile phones were very convenient at start because they provided a safe gateway to curated content, and globally enhanced the quality of what independant developpers released. But now it's clearly a hindrance. I wish the european union would force Apple to enable the installation of other app store (distributing legal software of course) on their device. Actually, a good start would be to have the "don't distribute an app that has the same feature as a preinstalled one" clause declared illegal.

x0x0 10y ago
And I hate that idea. I get people in my life to buy ios devices precisely because, even when they try, they are unable to install malware. That is not a feature any other OS has. Particularly the over-easy access to sideloading on android. Just last month my MIL managed to get her bank account password stolen because she used it on her PC and installed who knows what from one of those fake Microsoft support pop-over ads. The solution is to only access bank accounts on ios. It's really a major selling point of the devices.
- qzervaas 10y ago
  Any explanation for the downvotes?
  - duncanawoods 10y ago
    Not a downvoter but the reasoning that criminal action means we should give up the promise of general computation and freedom to use devices we "own" as we choose for walled gardens that massively enrich corporate gatekeepers is repugnant. We should catch criminals, fix security problems, maximise openness of platforms and competition and distribute wealth to a multitude of small independent creators instead of middlemen rent-seekers.
    - x0x0 10y ago
      Our industry's unparalleled track record of success catching criminals, fixing security problems, creating usable and secure software, and so forth continue to provide a great platform for end users. That's why online account theft, hacking, and malware are increasingly small problems. Abject failure for 20+ years is no reason to believe this won't work any day now.
    - nodamage 10y ago
      So, hypothetically, if Apple/Google decided to reduce their 30% cut to 0%, would you still perceive them as "repugnant" "middlemen rent-seekers"?
      - duncanawoods 10y ago
        The argument above for walled-gardens is repugnant because its an argument for a totalitarian police state. Removing rent-seeking does not address anti-competitiveness or destruction of fundamental computational freedoms. Gardens (safe curated places) are nice things to have but if you erect walls preventing us from leaving they become abusive. Rent-seeking is one of those abuses. Let us have many gardens and let them compete for our presence by the value they can bring.
      - abecedarius 10y ago
        Somehow, typical prices for software on app stores are considerably lower than independently distributed software was. Apple seems to have succeeded at commoditizing their complements, even ignoring the cut they take. I'm not sure how this got established as the equilibrium, but as a developer I don't want to participate in that role, and as a user I wish there was more great software, and suspect there would be if it hadn't become so commoditized. (I also agree that walled gardens are bad for freedom.)
        nodamage 10y ago
        This is definitely the case on mobile where everything has been driven to 99c or free, but the Mac App Store still has a healthy range of prices, including a bunch of desktop software in the $20-$100 range.
- dalbasal 10y ago
  I think you're both right. IOS (and to a large extent, android) have genuinely found an OS paradigm that works for unsophisticated users and put more power and confidence in their hands. The appstore is a big part of that. The icon=app rule is another part, where removing an icon removes the app. Users have a much improved understanding of their phone's software on an iphone relative to a windows/osx PC. That said, it also limits the more sophisticated user and puts more power into Apple/Google's hands than I'd like. It's 10 years later now and it's time to fill in some of the holes. Allowing alternative appstores would be a good start and wouldn't affect most users who are happy with the app store as is. Removing anti-competitive curation rules and practices would be good too.
  - bfred_it 10y ago
    Why would Apple give up their 30% margins? It makes no sense. Not until they're somehow forced into it, anyway.
- andyfleming 10y ago
  I'm not sure why you were downvoted. This is legitimate reasoning and you are contributing to the conversation in a civilized manner. There are absolutely tradeoffs of buying into a walled garden. I personally have mixed feelings. An open ecosystem sounds nice in ways. For example, on my mac, I would be very frustrated if I were locked into only being able to buy software from Apple's App Store. It would be a deal-breaker. However, I've never really found myself frustrated with the iPhone app ecosystem. However, I've definitely been saved hours and hours of family IT support by family members being on iOS.
- bsaul 10y ago
  I completely agree with that point, and make the same recommendations to people around me for the exact same reason. However, you could very well imagine apple creating a sort of "third party app store guidelines" that would make it compulsory for third party app store to check apps for security violations prior to publishing an app. Apple would then move one layer up. Instead of directly enforcing and distributing apps, it would enforce store basic rules, and leave some rules to others. Pretty much like what you'd do if you were to create a franchise. There are intermediate grounds between "we control everything, and are the only one allowed to push apps" to "we allow everyone to install anything they want". The idea is just to open this part of the market (app distribution) to competition.
- AnthonyMouse 10y ago
  The only thing required for that is no malware in the app store, not any of Apple's other restrictions on what you can put there. It doesn't even require prohibiting independent app stores, all it requires is that adding one prompt for a separate password which you don't give to your MIL.
  - DasIch 10y ago
    What if an independent app store, fails at adequately stopping malware from getting through? Is Apple going to ban the entire store then? Does Apple get to do that job for those stores instead? If the latter, does the App get reviewed both by Apple and the independent store? Does Apple get a cut in that scenario? How do you install independent app stores to begin with? Do you install them with he App Store? That would put them at a disadvantage similar to how Microsoft put other Browsers at a disadvantage with IE. Do you provide a choice then when you setup the phone? Purely from an anti-trust perspective I can see why the idea of independent app stores might seem appealing at first glance. Thinking about this just for a moment brings up so many questions though and I don't see how you can possibly come up with satisfying answers that lead to good security and a good user experience.
    - devonkim 10y ago
      One way to balance choice and safety is for Apple to share the data in their store and let people create app stores only as long as the store links within Apple's ecosystem. This really would just mean a different skin of sorts but perhaps there's a means of different approaches to app discovery possible.
    - AnthonyMouse 10y ago
      > What if an independent app store, fails at adequately stopping malware from getting through? Then don't use that one. You don't have to use any but Apple's if you don't want to. > How do you install independent app stores to begin with? Do you install them with he App Store? That would put them at a disadvantage similar to how Microsoft put other Browsers at a disadvantage with IE. As opposed to the status quo?
- tdkl 10y ago
  The solution is education. She should be thankful, not so long ago people would loose their life being stupid and those genes wouldn't pass on. I guess idiocracy is inevitable.
- Oletros 10y ago
  Perhaps a middle ground is like what you can do on Android, by default is a walled garden without the capability of installing from third party sources but you can enable it with a very big and scary warning

hossbeast 10y ago

This post is about the Mac App Store, not the iOS App Store.

ge0rg 10y ago
It took me several paragraphs of wondering how they circumvented the iOS restriction until I realized that. They really should have added "Mac" to the title.
ci5er 10y ago
Thank you. Many many things have now been made clear.

kalleboo 10y ago

I still search for apps with Google instead of in the App Store, even for iOS apps, since the App Store is such a terrible user experience (poor search, slow loading, glitchy, limited information compared to websites)

AsyncAwait 10y ago
App Store sometimes fails to find the app I am looking for, even if I know the name of the app.

pfranz 10y ago

Someone mentioned it in the page's comments, but I'm really surprised they didn't even caveat what they get for paying Apple 30% (much of this is redundant if they already sold outside of the App Store); download/update infrastructure, payment (and refunds), security (serial numbers and piracy protection), customer support and service support for those things. At least as an individual developer, that's all stuff I wouldn't want to deal with if I was shipping something. Clearly, Apple has dropped the ball on making the App Store compelling. It's sad that a classic indie Mac app brand like Rogue Amoeba only offers one app (Fission) for sale in it.

ikonst 10y ago
I think Rogue Amoeba was already doing serial numbers etc. for their other products. re Payments: Have you ever seen how easy Stripe is?
- pfranz 10y ago
  I did mention that selling apps both in and out of the store requires you to set up many of those things. I was just surprised they didn't even mention it as a caveat because the way the article is worded it sounds like not being in the App Store equals 30% extra profit. I haven't used Stripe (but have heard good things), but it's still not free. With the App store you don't necessarily need a webpage and all of the costs associated with designing, deploying, and maintaining.
paulkafasis 10y ago
While I certainly didn't go into depth on this, this line acknowledges the cost of both direct and App Store sales: “Direct sales cost us just a few percent, so each direct sale of Piezo earns almost $5 more than a sale through the Mac App Store.” That “few percent” takes into account the cost of our site and our downloads, as well as handling payment. As far as acknowledging what Apple provides, it's simply not worth very much. The cost of infrastructure is incredibly low (nowhere near the 30% they take), and none of what you list is difficult to manage. Further, any developer who's looking to earn money is going to want to replicate most of that anyway. You should have a website you control to provide information and promote the product (see the many comments about Googling for apps, rather than using the App Store). You also ought to provide customer support for the product itself - Apple certainly doesn't help you there. Once you've got a web site, adding direct downloads is easy. Payment processing and license keys are certainly the most difficult pieces, but anyone making a Mac app can manage them as well. It can all be set up in a manner of days, if not hours. I wouldn't tell a developer that they must steer clear of the Mac App Store, but I absolutely would say they're doing themselves (and their customers) a disservice if they don't also sell their product directly.

glasz 10y ago

the mac is dead. i said it. downvote. i don't care. but it's dead and so is the app store. i hear they're rewriting the entire app store backend, ditching web objects. but i'm having a hard time seeing them rebooting the bloody thing in some serious manner to adress the issues. $200b to spend and just a few things don't get better. it's sad.

fit2rule 10y ago
They have to compete with brew cask, in my opinion, and that's just not going to happen in a way that pushes the homebrew developers out of the market. Much better to have community-curation than corporate-curation in my opinion.
- supercoder 10y ago
  What is competing with brew exactly ?
  - fit2rule 10y ago
    Having an open community which curates apps on a regular and consistent basis instead of a closed hegemony which doesn't have its users interests as a priority.

fit2rule 10y ago

I think one thing that might make a difference in this regard is inclusion in the brew Caskroom list .. I've installed more apps through 'brew cask' than through the Mac App Store, that is for sure, and usually its because I was able to quickly and easily search, locate and discover apps very rapidly with a simple 'brew search' .. its at the point where I consider inclusion in the Caskroom repo's more important than App Store submission at this point. I trust the community software collections a lot more than the 'official Apple' channels, for some reason - I'm sure its not rational, but more just a fear of corporate control and the ultimate denigrating effect it has on the quality of software. Plus there's the whole 'brew update && brew upgrade && brew cleanup && brew doctor' factor, that gives me - rightly or wrongly so - the impression that I have far more control over the software on my system than that granted me by the graces of Apple.

skinnymuch 10y ago
I use Cask a ton too. But we have to be in the huge minority. No one I've shown Cask to has ended up using it. I'm mainly talking about slightly above average techies or a few people who are comfortable with the cli. I doubt any paid software listed in Cask has their download numbers change by more than a few percent, if that.

simplehuman 10y ago

Not sure about this. I feel safe and secure thanks to App Store. Won't download any app outside it.

AsyncAwait 10y ago
I'd say that you're greatly limiting your choices, the App Store sandbox greatly limits what you app can do.
charlesism 10y ago
I wouldn't feel safe and secure without "Little Snitch" installed. Don't look for it on the App Store, it will never be there.

rcarmo 10y ago

I think there is an elephant in the room here, which is that app stores (Mac, iOS or otherwise), besides all the requirements for inclusion (sandboxing, approvals, etc.) have become massively unmanageable dumping grounds, full of junk that is very hard to sift through for the normal customer. Yes, they afford some credibility, trust and security (even though evil devs are constantly pushing the envelope), but even simple mechanisms like search are fundamentally broken on Apple's stores. And it's not just about devs gaming the keyword rankings (I see enough of that when my kids search for games). It's just hopeless. So no wonder RogueAmoeba makes more money off the App Store. Even discounting other factors, their (rather specialized and very, very cool) apps are just easier to find via web search.

tempodox 10y ago
There is a massive irony in the fact that Google yields better search results for iOS and Mac apps than the AppStore. I've gotten to the point where I use the AppStore only in absence of alternatives. If Apple wanted to get more into services, the AppStores would be an obvious and easy way to demonstrate their ability and willingness to provide, if not valuable, then at least usable services. And all they do is botch it.
- gcr 10y ago
  Agreed 100%. The only time I use the App Store is after I know which app I want to install. Discovery is still very poor if you want to find something that wasn't featured.
- dreamcompiler 10y ago
  Completely agree. AppStore search is now in the same sorry state as web search before Google existed. It desperately needs an innovation that does for app search what PageRank did for web search. Unfortunately, Apple isn't going to let anybody else build it, and I see no indication that Apple is building it themselves.
- luckman212 10y ago
  Agree with the general sentiment here. AppStore search is badly broken and the system has been gamed to the point of being nearly useless. A site that helps me (no affiliation whatsoever) that at least allows filtering based on release date and "star rating" is https://theappstore.org/ https://theappstore.org/

daadaa 10y ago

I hope that Apple would allow developers submit more freely apps. Taking down every app that have adult content or app that apple feels are competition with their own products is very low from Apple. Why people would like to be in these ghettos, where development is so so restricted? Going out from store is the best way.

k__ 10y ago

PWAs are the future :)

bfred_it 10y ago
Have you seen what kind of software Rogue Amoeba produces? They can barely make it work without kernel extensions, let alone browser APIs that would take years to develop and mature.
- k__ 10y ago
  Sure, but apps like that aren't the majority :)

camtarn 10y ago

For context, the app (Piezo) in question was removed from the Mac App Store (not the iOS App Store, as I first assumed on reading!) by its developers. It's an audio recorder which can record audio from other apps. The App Store introduced a sandbox which prevented the app from working, but they got around that by simply not updating the app and thus retaining the ability to work outside the sandbox. However, other apps introduced changes which broke Piezo, and which needed a fix which couldn't be distributed via App Store, finally killing that methods of distribution. https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2016/02/12/piezo-1-5-arrives-piezo-exits-the-mac-app-store/ https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2016/02/12/piezo-1-5-arrives-...

hellofunk 10y ago

My main concern about releasing outside the app store is the security of licensing. The App Store takes care of that for you, but common licensing systems for Mac and Windows Desktop (like Nalpeiron) are quite expensive. And there would be significant developer time integrating them. Are there better alternatives? Perhaps it is not as hard as I imagine it to be to roll your own payment and licensing service? The App Store is also good if you want to sell app subscriptions. That too would seem complicated to do on your own.