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The "$20 head of lettuce" argument falls apart when you examine it critically. Here is how I deduced that a $20/hour rate for farm labor, vs the assumed $8/hou

The "$20 head of lettuce" argument falls apart when you examine it critically. Here is how I deduced that a $20/hour rate for farm labor, vs the assumed $8/hour rate paid now, would add no more than 5 cents per head of lettuce to the cost, and (assuming various middle-man markups in between farmer and supermarket) a retail difference of perhaps 25 cents. 1. Go to youtube, search for videos of modern lettuce farm operation. IIRC, I looked at the Iceberg Lettuce section of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxbJVqfIK1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxbJVqfIK1U 2. Count all workers you see working on the tractor-towed rig, figure each makes $8/hour. This gives you the total hourly labor rate (e.g. if there are 10 people = $80/hour). 3. Watch carefully and figure out the total time spent handling/processing 1 head of lettuce. Figure out the per-head cost, assuming the people are working 50 minutes per hour (bathroom breaks, tractor changing the wagon, etc.) 3b. Note that when it is stacked on the back of the truck, it is ready to ship to the supermarket; so there is no further labor needed aside from warehouse/trucking. Now do the same per-head cost, assuming $20/hour labor (i.e. multiple by 2.5 the amount you got at $8/hour). * There, now you have answered the question for yourself and you are not relying on my biased opinion. * In my area a head of lettuce is about $2.50. Assuming the 25-cents increase, the cost for a head of lettuce would go up no more than 10%.

jelliclesfarm 10y ago
http://coststudyfiles.ucdavis.edu/uploads/cs_public/92/af/92af15bd-a003-4e2e-a796-fc33e253edb8/lettuceicecc09.pdf http://coststudyfiles.ucdavis.edu/uploads/cs_public/92/af/92... : everything you want to know about lettuce. (A tad dated: 2009.) Or rather the economics of it simply: farmer sells 24 count carton to wholesaler at average $12. It can vary from $9-15/carton. How it gets marked up after the farmer sells it doesn't matter. There are two kinds of wages: harvest/manual labour wages and machine wages. The former is around $12 and the latter around $15(includes payroll taxes). How does the math work out now? You can 16 pages from ucdavis to crunch it.
- patrickg_zill 10y ago
  For some reason, I can't load that file at this exact moment... I admit to "eyeballing" the video in estimating the time spent; however, I think it is a good exercise to do, as you realize (for any fruit/veg harvest) how much is done and how quickly. The argument about "we won't be able to afford fruits/veggies" seems quite "off".
  - jelliclesfarm 10y ago
    It's not about not being able to afford but rather how much people are willing to pay. No one does. Ask any chef-restauranteur. For whatever reason, in the USA..we are very resistant to opening our wallets for food needs. Reluctance.. I can't explain why. It's a mystery. That aside..take this example: http://www.freightfarms.com/blog/data-from-our-growers-operating-the-lgm-as-a-business http://www.freightfarms.com/blog/data-from-our-growers-opera... ..semi automated hydroponics system. It's easier to crunch numbers here. I would seriously dispute the 'profit' of $39k/container. There is also the cost of the land and insurance(its same for 1-20 acres. About $800/annum. How would they treat a container for ag insurance? Rent for space where it's parked etc. I don't know) and certifications(GAP audits etc). Reliability of market etc. I would put it at about a third of it. Because these guys will probably be competing with the Salinas and half moon bay suppliers. Also note that they are not certified organic and perishables have to move quickly to a very certain market. And you do have to plonk $85/container.(I would round it off to $100k). I am just trying to show you how even a little bit of deviation towards farm automation makes things better. Of course, it's also highly risky as it's a closed system. The numbers won't apply to other produce. Grains and certain commodity crops will have to be grown in soil only. So automation has to be robotic solutions and slowly complementing human labour. And ultimately full intelligent automation. That's our only option. We have reached a certain carrying capacity I feel and scaling food production using human labour to feed the billions of people(and animals that go to feed the billions of people) is soon going to become un feasible. Not just in terms of actual labour logistics and costs but also in terms of environmental costs..not to mention resources like fossil fuel, water etc..plus the pollution that is inherent to food production. It's all going to be about carbon footprint. That's why local food production is important. For every load of lettuce harvested, there is a cost too to transport, refrigerate and then transport it back again to the shelves of the local greengrocer. Makes no sense. Example: a head of lettuce grown in salinas..not too far away from Palo Alto goes through the entire supply chain distribution trip before it ends up at a Whole Foods in Palo Alto. There is so many inefficiency leaks in terms of energy, costs and time. Probably decreased nutritive value also due to the age of said head of lettuce. This hand wringing over labour issues..illegal or not is moot...is useless as 'fixing' this problem is not really fixing the real problem. The solution would have to be re how tech is going to help us automate our farms. Who knows..maybe farms could even become profitable if that happens. And food distribution has to be local. I don't know if I have digressed from your original point..that food won't be expensive if we raise wages. Perhaps I have..but I hope i have shown some other facets of the problem and how raising wages is really not a solution.
mcphage 10y ago
> The "$20 head of lettuce" argument falls apart when you examine it critically. I'm sorry, what? Your idea of "examine it critically" is to watch a snippet of internet video, assume that it shows the entire picture of produce farming & distibution, and then count people believing that you can use that snippet to calculate costs? You really think this is in any way a meaningful calculation? Are you for real?

jelliclesfarm 10y ago

http://coststudyfiles.ucdavis.edu/uploads/cs_public/92/af/92af15bd-a003-4e2e-a796-fc33e253edb8/lettuceicecc09.pdf http://coststudyfiles.ucdavis.edu/uploads/cs_public/92/af/92... : everything you want to know about lettuce. (A tad dated: 2009.) Or rather the economics of it simply: farmer sells 24 count carton to wholesaler at average $12. It can vary from $9-15/carton. How it gets marked up after the farmer sells it doesn't matter. There are two kinds of wages: harvest/manual labour wages and machine wages. The former is around $12 and the latter around $15(includes payroll taxes). How does the math work out now? You can 16 pages from ucdavis to crunch it.

patrickg_zill 10y ago
For some reason, I can't load that file at this exact moment... I admit to "eyeballing" the video in estimating the time spent; however, I think it is a good exercise to do, as you realize (for any fruit/veg harvest) how much is done and how quickly. The argument about "we won't be able to afford fruits/veggies" seems quite "off".
- jelliclesfarm 10y ago
  It's not about not being able to afford but rather how much people are willing to pay. No one does. Ask any chef-restauranteur. For whatever reason, in the USA..we are very resistant to opening our wallets for food needs. Reluctance.. I can't explain why. It's a mystery. That aside..take this example: http://www.freightfarms.com/blog/data-from-our-growers-operating-the-lgm-as-a-business http://www.freightfarms.com/blog/data-from-our-growers-opera... ..semi automated hydroponics system. It's easier to crunch numbers here. I would seriously dispute the 'profit' of $39k/container. There is also the cost of the land and insurance(its same for 1-20 acres. About $800/annum. How would they treat a container for ag insurance? Rent for space where it's parked etc. I don't know) and certifications(GAP audits etc). Reliability of market etc. I would put it at about a third of it. Because these guys will probably be competing with the Salinas and half moon bay suppliers. Also note that they are not certified organic and perishables have to move quickly to a very certain market. And you do have to plonk $85/container.(I would round it off to $100k). I am just trying to show you how even a little bit of deviation towards farm automation makes things better. Of course, it's also highly risky as it's a closed system. The numbers won't apply to other produce. Grains and certain commodity crops will have to be grown in soil only. So automation has to be robotic solutions and slowly complementing human labour. And ultimately full intelligent automation. That's our only option. We have reached a certain carrying capacity I feel and scaling food production using human labour to feed the billions of people(and animals that go to feed the billions of people) is soon going to become un feasible. Not just in terms of actual labour logistics and costs but also in terms of environmental costs..not to mention resources like fossil fuel, water etc..plus the pollution that is inherent to food production. It's all going to be about carbon footprint. That's why local food production is important. For every load of lettuce harvested, there is a cost too to transport, refrigerate and then transport it back again to the shelves of the local greengrocer. Makes no sense. Example: a head of lettuce grown in salinas..not too far away from Palo Alto goes through the entire supply chain distribution trip before it ends up at a Whole Foods in Palo Alto. There is so many inefficiency leaks in terms of energy, costs and time. Probably decreased nutritive value also due to the age of said head of lettuce. This hand wringing over labour issues..illegal or not is moot...is useless as 'fixing' this problem is not really fixing the real problem. The solution would have to be re how tech is going to help us automate our farms. Who knows..maybe farms could even become profitable if that happens. And food distribution has to be local. I don't know if I have digressed from your original point..that food won't be expensive if we raise wages. Perhaps I have..but I hope i have shown some other facets of the problem and how raising wages is really not a solution.

mcphage 10y ago

> The "$20 head of lettuce" argument falls apart when you examine it critically. I'm sorry, what? Your idea of "examine it critically" is to watch a snippet of internet video, assume that it shows the entire picture of produce farming & distibution, and then count people believing that you can use that snippet to calculate costs? You really think this is in any way a meaningful calculation? Are you for real?