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They're idiots if they thought Trump wouldn't follow through on his pledge to deport illegal workers. However, it should be noted that protectionism will also

by Mikeb85 10y ago

They're idiots if they thought Trump wouldn't follow through on his pledge to deport illegal workers. However, it should be noted that protectionism will also help American farmers, as produce from Mexico will become more expensive. Should also add, allowing illegal immigrants to work benefits no one. Not American workers, not Mexican workers, no one. By bypassing labour laws and minimum wages, it allows for exploitation and also drives wages down.

godzillabrennus 10y ago
Exactly. Yet if you make it illegal to hire a non-citizen and you have millions of laborers you create a black market of cheap labor for unsafe business practices. It's better to legalize and regulate something than to make it illegal. Make the minimum wage to hire a non-citizen the same $15/hour for a citizen and poof all the illegals now compete with the citizens at fair market rate.
- Mikeb85 10y ago
  > It's better to legalize and regulate something than to make it illegal. And there's already a system in place allowing for legal immigration. That being said, too much immigration, legal or not, has significant social and economic effects. Tolerating illegal workers and unlimited immigration are both bad ideas.
- AnthonyMouse 10y ago
  The problem is granting citizenship to effectively anyone who wants it is not going to fly, but allowing millions of non-citizen workers would require the elimination of birthright citizenship for the same reason. And then you have a permanent underclass. An actual solution might be to rework the way we do agricultural subsidies, to replace them with wage subsidies for agricultural workers. Then you only get the subsidy if you hire someone legally, which causes legal workers to out-compete the black market. A UBI (which allows the elimination of the minimum wage) could do the same without the industry-specific treatment.
argigg 10y ago
It benefits people who eat food, by allowing more food to be produced for lower prices.
guitarbill 10y ago
> Should also add, allowing illegal immigrants to work benefits no one. Not American workers, not Mexican workers, no one. By bypassing labour laws and minimum wages, it allows for exploitation and also drives wages down. That's may or may not be true, and could be a combination of a) there aren't enough people around who would do the job even with minimum wage, e.g. depending on how attractive welfare is and b) it's hard to legally immigrate. So the reality is - as usual - complicated. Let's assume somehow magically all illegal immigrants were deported or whatever. What do you think would happen in the short and long run? To e.g. fresh produce? Do you really think American workers would rush in, and the public would tolerate the higher prices? There's no easy solutions, and many wrong ones that tackle symptoms but not the root cause.
- Mikeb85 10y ago
  > There's no easy solutions Capitalism has an easy solution. Labour shortage = raise wages.
  - guitarbill 10y ago
    Sorry, I edited the parent comment for brevity and changed it a bit. But my question is still who would pay for those wage raises? The people who buy the products? How do you think they'd react if fruit/vegetables were twice the price overnight? Would they say "yeah, that seems fair" or "fuck it, let's allow immigration"? Do they even earn enough money themselves to have the liberty to make that decision, if food was a lot more expensive?
    - Mikeb85 10y ago
      > But my question is still who would pay for those wage raises? The people who buy the products? Yes, exactly. > How do you think they'd react if fruit/vegetables were twice the price overnight? If you weren't artificially suppressing wages through illegal immigration, the working class would have more money, the labour market would be at a better equilibrium and everyone would have money to buy food even at the slightly higher prices. Who knows, maybe landowning farmers would even find some way to produce more efficiently, with a little incentive.
scottkduncan 10y ago
Protectionism would benefit some U.S. farmers, but certainly not all. The U.S. is a net exporter of corn, soybeans, dairy, etc. to Mexico and they are our third largest agricultural export market.

by Mikeb85 10y ago

godzillabrennus 10y ago

Exactly. Yet if you make it illegal to hire a non-citizen and you have millions of laborers you create a black market of cheap labor for unsafe business practices. It's better to legalize and regulate something than to make it illegal. Make the minimum wage to hire a non-citizen the same $15/hour for a citizen and poof all the illegals now compete with the citizens at fair market rate.

Mikeb85 10y ago
> It's better to legalize and regulate something than to make it illegal. And there's already a system in place allowing for legal immigration. That being said, too much immigration, legal or not, has significant social and economic effects. Tolerating illegal workers and unlimited immigration are both bad ideas.
AnthonyMouse 10y ago
The problem is granting citizenship to effectively anyone who wants it is not going to fly, but allowing millions of non-citizen workers would require the elimination of birthright citizenship for the same reason. And then you have a permanent underclass. An actual solution might be to rework the way we do agricultural subsidies, to replace them with wage subsidies for agricultural workers. Then you only get the subsidy if you hire someone legally, which causes legal workers to out-compete the black market. A UBI (which allows the elimination of the minimum wage) could do the same without the industry-specific treatment.

argigg 10y ago

It benefits people who eat food, by allowing more food to be produced for lower prices.

guitarbill 10y ago

> Should also add, allowing illegal immigrants to work benefits no one. Not American workers, not Mexican workers, no one. By bypassing labour laws and minimum wages, it allows for exploitation and also drives wages down. That's may or may not be true, and could be a combination of a) there aren't enough people around who would do the job even with minimum wage, e.g. depending on how attractive welfare is and b) it's hard to legally immigrate. So the reality is - as usual - complicated. Let's assume somehow magically all illegal immigrants were deported or whatever. What do you think would happen in the short and long run? To e.g. fresh produce? Do you really think American workers would rush in, and the public would tolerate the higher prices? There's no easy solutions, and many wrong ones that tackle symptoms but not the root cause.

Mikeb85 10y ago
> There's no easy solutions Capitalism has an easy solution. Labour shortage = raise wages.
- guitarbill 10y ago
  Sorry, I edited the parent comment for brevity and changed it a bit. But my question is still who would pay for those wage raises? The people who buy the products? How do you think they'd react if fruit/vegetables were twice the price overnight? Would they say "yeah, that seems fair" or "fuck it, let's allow immigration"? Do they even earn enough money themselves to have the liberty to make that decision, if food was a lot more expensive?
  - Mikeb85 10y ago
    > But my question is still who would pay for those wage raises? The people who buy the products? Yes, exactly. > How do you think they'd react if fruit/vegetables were twice the price overnight? If you weren't artificially suppressing wages through illegal immigration, the working class would have more money, the labour market would be at a better equilibrium and everyone would have money to buy food even at the slightly higher prices. Who knows, maybe landowning farmers would even find some way to produce more efficiently, with a little incentive.

scottkduncan 10y ago

Protectionism would benefit some U.S. farmers, but certainly not all. The U.S. is a net exporter of corn, soybeans, dairy, etc. to Mexico and they are our third largest agricultural export market.