4 ms·

Oracle is such a shit company. There are still some great hackers there but Larry Ellison is an asshole, and I don't envy anyone who has to work for him even in

Oracle is such a shit company. There are still some great hackers there but Larry Ellison is an asshole, and I don't envy anyone who has to work for him even indirectly. "Left Oracle's Java business in tatters" eh? Where was their mobile OS? Their Dalvik? The wounds to Java have all been self-inflicted. If they succeed in copyrighting the API then where does this leave OpenJDK? Operating at the mercy of Larry fucking Ellison, which means not at all. I've got 17 years of Java experience under my belt, but frankly with Docker + Kubernetes for deployment and new system languages like Rust and Go I'm thinking it's time to jump ship. Or even to C# since apparently MS got the memo on Open Source (not to mention the need for integrated platform modularization - no more Maven hell! Yay!).

ghuntley 10y ago
fsharp |> welcomes all alienated Java veterans and newbies with open arms!
- ed_blackburn 10y ago
  If you don't like maven, you're going to need a padded cell when you move to nuget.
  - hyperhopper 10y ago
    Paket makes dependencies a bit more reasonable, though https://fsprojects.github.io/Paket/ https://fsprojects.github.io/Paket/ But I agree, even Yarn/npm is better than the current state of dependencies for F#
    - ed_blackburn 10y ago
      Yep. Love Paket. Wholeheartedly recommend it.
  - lmm 10y ago
    I really like maven, so if there's an even more maven-ey thing around then sign me up.
    - ktRolster 10y ago
      nuget is frequently disparaged even in the C# community. I personally would say Maven is much cleaner, if also a bit more strict.
- Gonzih 10y ago
  Is it still painful to do F-Sharp on Linux?
  - noisy_boy 10y ago
    I played with F# on Linux last weekend - using Visual Studio Code. That + the plugins makes it workable - the development experience is not as smooth as I would want it to be: - Paket keeps checking for new version on every build request with no way to switch that off to my knowledge - There is no easy way to run the executable without dropping to the terminal (Ctrl+Shift+P -> fsharp doesn't show a "run current" or anything similar). - The go-to-definition functionality doesn't work; highlighting and pressing f12 doesn't do anything (though hovering pointer on a function shows a tool-tip for what its worth). The build works fine, syntax highlighting works, linter works well too. Not very sure if I should spend more effort to develop a full application (I want to build a REST api) because my target deployment platform is Linux and I'm not sure if F# on Linux is production ready or not (genuine concern and happy to get feedback on it).
- ledgerdev 10y ago
  Any good walk throughs for fsharp on coreclr with vscode?
blub 10y ago
Maybe he is an asshole, but at least Larry Ellison didn't build a company to spy on half the planet like Page & Brin.
- nine_k 10y ago
  He failed to make half the world use his company's products, among other things. BTW I'd appreciate if you gave an example of a highly successful and ethically impeccable company.
  - jolux 10y ago
    >ethically impeccable company First of all this is moving the goalposts significantly and is also an impossible standard. I would say that Apple and Microsoft are more ethical than Google but the question is of course along what axis?
    - _audakel 10y ago
      It's easy to hate on big companies for one or 2 publicly criticized decisions, but never know the thousands of non public decisions that made that choice the best one, or the thousands of non public stories of the good stuff they do. Not to say companies should get of easy, but you can't project a huge multidimensional entity into a single axis of ethical or not.
    - sangnoir 10y ago
      TBF, GP was shifting goalposts in turn. Whenever you hear anything like, "Alice did X, but at least she's better than Bob who did unrelated thing Y" you know the goalposts are being moved (at best) or your attention is being misdirected nefariously. It doesn't add anything valuable to the discussion.
      - jolux 10y ago
        Perhaps, but I think that's closer to poisoning the well. Google don't have to be moral to deserve legal representation but since they are far, far from moral it does mean I won't count it as a moral victory when they win a court case.
gribbly 10y ago
>Or even to C# since apparently MS got the memo on Open Source Actually Microsoft was with Oracle on the whole 'API's should be copyrightable' and lobbied on their behalf during the case. Microsoft claimed that: "If Google's position that APIs can't be copyrighted stands, it will "destabilize" the entire software industry" https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/microsoft-foresees-chaos-if-google-v-oracle-result-stands/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/microsoft-forese...
- curt15 10y ago
  One wonders where they stand now that they've reimplemented the Linux kernel APIs in Windows 10.
  - curun1r 10y ago
    Or considering they became such a large company selling a product that targeted IBM compatible systems. In that case, they were a consumer of what was essentially an API, but one wonders whether Microsoft would be in the position it is in today if IBM had been able to prevent Compaq and other vendors from creating clean-room implementations of what was essentially the IBM PC API. IBM would have been in a much better position to push OS/2 and supplant Microsoft's OS offerings if it would have had a monopoly on the PC's supporting it's PC interface.
  - WildUtah 10y ago
    Microsoft has a license to the UNIX APIs from AT&T via Cal BSD.
- jyrkesh 10y ago
  I'd imagine that was a Ballmer-era policy. I would be interested to see if there's anything like that coming out of Nadella's Microsoft (keeping in mind that Nadella's Microsoft hired the guy behind Mono).
- userbinator 10y ago
  They mean "destablilize" as in "the fat pigs at the top will lose power", which is incidentally what everyone else wants.
panarky 10y ago
> Oracle is such a shit company Oracle is a parasite, milking the innovations of years ago through customer lock-in and aggressive litigation. They are a black hole in the tech ecosystem, extracting hundreds of billions of value for themselves, profiting from open source while contributing very little back to the community. If they win this lawsuit it will be a dark day for innovation and a big loss for shared knowledge and progress.

ghuntley 10y ago

fsharp |> welcomes all alienated Java veterans and newbies with open arms!

ed_blackburn 10y ago
If you don't like maven, you're going to need a padded cell when you move to nuget.
- hyperhopper 10y ago
  Paket makes dependencies a bit more reasonable, though https://fsprojects.github.io/Paket/ https://fsprojects.github.io/Paket/ But I agree, even Yarn/npm is better than the current state of dependencies for F#
  - ed_blackburn 10y ago
    Yep. Love Paket. Wholeheartedly recommend it.
- lmm 10y ago
  I really like maven, so if there's an even more maven-ey thing around then sign me up.
  - ktRolster 10y ago
    nuget is frequently disparaged even in the C# community. I personally would say Maven is much cleaner, if also a bit more strict.
Gonzih 10y ago
Is it still painful to do F-Sharp on Linux?
- noisy_boy 10y ago
  I played with F# on Linux last weekend - using Visual Studio Code. That + the plugins makes it workable - the development experience is not as smooth as I would want it to be: - Paket keeps checking for new version on every build request with no way to switch that off to my knowledge - There is no easy way to run the executable without dropping to the terminal (Ctrl+Shift+P -> fsharp doesn't show a "run current" or anything similar). - The go-to-definition functionality doesn't work; highlighting and pressing f12 doesn't do anything (though hovering pointer on a function shows a tool-tip for what its worth). The build works fine, syntax highlighting works, linter works well too. Not very sure if I should spend more effort to develop a full application (I want to build a REST api) because my target deployment platform is Linux and I'm not sure if F# on Linux is production ready or not (genuine concern and happy to get feedback on it).
ledgerdev 10y ago
Any good walk throughs for fsharp on coreclr with vscode?

blub 10y ago

Maybe he is an asshole, but at least Larry Ellison didn't build a company to spy on half the planet like Page & Brin.

nine_k 10y ago
He failed to make half the world use his company's products, among other things. BTW I'd appreciate if you gave an example of a highly successful and ethically impeccable company.
- jolux 10y ago
  >ethically impeccable company First of all this is moving the goalposts significantly and is also an impossible standard. I would say that Apple and Microsoft are more ethical than Google but the question is of course along what axis?
  - _audakel 10y ago
    It's easy to hate on big companies for one or 2 publicly criticized decisions, but never know the thousands of non public decisions that made that choice the best one, or the thousands of non public stories of the good stuff they do. Not to say companies should get of easy, but you can't project a huge multidimensional entity into a single axis of ethical or not.
  - sangnoir 10y ago
    TBF, GP was shifting goalposts in turn. Whenever you hear anything like, "Alice did X, but at least she's better than Bob who did unrelated thing Y" you know the goalposts are being moved (at best) or your attention is being misdirected nefariously. It doesn't add anything valuable to the discussion.
    - jolux 10y ago
      Perhaps, but I think that's closer to poisoning the well. Google don't have to be moral to deserve legal representation but since they are far, far from moral it does mean I won't count it as a moral victory when they win a court case.

gribbly 10y ago

>Or even to C# since apparently MS got the memo on Open Source Actually Microsoft was with Oracle on the whole 'API's should be copyrightable' and lobbied on their behalf during the case. Microsoft claimed that: "If Google's position that APIs can't be copyrighted stands, it will "destabilize" the entire software industry" https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/microsoft-foresees-chaos-if-google-v-oracle-result-stands/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/microsoft-forese...

curt15 10y ago
One wonders where they stand now that they've reimplemented the Linux kernel APIs in Windows 10.
- curun1r 10y ago
  Or considering they became such a large company selling a product that targeted IBM compatible systems. In that case, they were a consumer of what was essentially an API, but one wonders whether Microsoft would be in the position it is in today if IBM had been able to prevent Compaq and other vendors from creating clean-room implementations of what was essentially the IBM PC API. IBM would have been in a much better position to push OS/2 and supplant Microsoft's OS offerings if it would have had a monopoly on the PC's supporting it's PC interface.
- WildUtah 10y ago
  Microsoft has a license to the UNIX APIs from AT&T via Cal BSD.
jyrkesh 10y ago
I'd imagine that was a Ballmer-era policy. I would be interested to see if there's anything like that coming out of Nadella's Microsoft (keeping in mind that Nadella's Microsoft hired the guy behind Mono).
userbinator 10y ago
They mean "destablilize" as in "the fat pigs at the top will lose power", which is incidentally what everyone else wants.

panarky 10y ago

> Oracle is such a shit company Oracle is a parasite, milking the innovations of years ago through customer lock-in and aggressive litigation. They are a black hole in the tech ecosystem, extracting hundreds of billions of value for themselves, profiting from open source while contributing very little back to the community. If they win this lawsuit it will be a dark day for innovation and a big loss for shared knowledge and progress.