6 ms·

Repetition makes lies seem true, but repetition also makes truth seem true. All persuasion (and indoctrination) happens through repetition, whether in a classro

by gizmo 10y ago

Repetition makes lies seem true, but repetition also makes truth seem true. All persuasion (and indoctrination) happens through repetition, whether in a classroom setting, a forum like this one, or in sales. This realization is also deeply depressing, because it means you're doomed to repeat yourself over and over if you want to persuade people. Let's take Noam Chomsky for instance. He gives more than a hundred talks every year for the past 50 years. He has written dozens (if not a hundred) books, given thousands of interviews. His message is always the same. Because after you've figured out what your best and most persuasive arguments are the only thing left to do is repeat yourself over and over. Every day is groundhog day. Startups also have to learn the value of repetition. Long form sales text works, because of repetition. Long form video demos work, because of repetition. Drip email campaigns work, because of repetition. It's often better to give customers one good reason to use your product, repeated three times than to give three distinct reasons why they should purchase. Counter-intuitive, perhaps, unless you've heard this argument before.

krrrh 10y ago
Another example is Ronald Reagan. I can't remember who said it, but one of the people around him was asked how he managed to become president and known as the great communicator, and the reply was along the lines of, "he made the same speech [1] every week for 25 years." [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qXBswFfh6AY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qXBswFfh6AY
CoryG89 10y ago
I take your point, but I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that all persuasion happens through repetition. Maybe I'm a bit full of myself, but I like to think that with sound enough logic, I could be persuaded from my position by hearing an argument only once. That would probably be the distinction I would draw between persuasion in general and indoctrination / brainwashing. Of course, generally indoctrination and brainwashing seem to have a much higher rate of success in changing minds, which is indeed depressing.
- metaobject 10y ago
  I've read geometric/mathematical proofs that have convinced me immediately. Just seeing the logical steps flow from step to step was enough to prove the assertion was true.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - spynxic 10y ago
    I consider this as an object of argument as well, however, axioms seem to be the underlying structure of repetition for all proofs [as far as I understand mathematics].
    - drdeca 10y ago
      What do you mean "structure of repetition"? Premises which are already accepted are used to conclude further ones.
- erik14th 10y ago
  The "brainwashing" part is not related to the repetition, but the way you "acquire" the information, "acquire" on the sense of taking it for yourself. If you learn something through repetition, it's a good thing, it is learning. If you're fooled by repetition, then it's brainwashing. Also important to note, that quite often, the one that fools you is yourself. Now to distinct between "being fooled" and "learning". I would say that learning comprises understanding, while being fooled only comprises agreement. Thing is, defining "real understanding" is a pretty hard problem.
- gizmo 10y ago
  Learning is repetition. Exercises. Flash cards. Midterms followed by exams. You either hear the argument once and you repeat it to yourself, or you get the argument spoon fed multiple times, but the bottom line is the same. Without repetition there is no memorization or internalization, and no learning can take place. Phrasing the challenge as "sound enough logic" puts the burden of proof in the wrong place. It implies that whenever you're not persuaded it's the fault of the other person for not being persuasive enough. That's the opposite of open-mindedness. It is exactly because of the presumption that your current beliefs are true that you won't change your mind as easily as you might think. Even Scientologists say they'll leave the church if somebody could just provide them with evidence it's all baloney, but it's a standard of proof nobody can meet. When I say all persuasion is repetition, it's really not an overstatement. Maybe you're closer to believing me this time ;-)
bluejekyll 10y ago
> This realization is also deeply depressing, because it means you're doomed to repeat yourself over and over if you want to persuade people. Yes. Embrace this. Patience is a virtue; and not getting angry because the person you've stated something to doesn't get it even the third time you've stated it. I actually find it fun to try and come up with different ways to state things such that people might better understand it.
- derefr 10y ago
  "Doesn't get it" isn't always (or even usually) the problem, though. It's more "wasn't listening" or "didn't have time to comprehend what you meant (or the implications of what you meant) before the conversation moved on." The biggest component of success in communication comes down to saying things enough times that your message can actually be listened to and digested at least once. You can vary the way you say things each time, but literal repetition works nearly as well, because the problem is almost never "I don't know what those words in that order mean" but rather "I didn't hear half that sentence" or "I was thinking about lunch" or "that might have been important but it just sort of passed by and I forgot."
schoen 10y ago
Richard Stallman is another example of someone who gives the same handful of speeches over and over (many times in almost exactly the same words). I've heard him describe over and over again the wastefulness of not being able to write software to interact with a university printer because the printer manufacturer choose to keep the necessary details secret.
- theoh 10y ago
  I've never seen Stallman speak, but that sounds like a similar situation to this anecdote from Nottingham in the 80s: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XvwNKpDUkiE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XvwNKpDUkiE It's a somewhat tedious story but it's all about the freedom to control your own hardware.
  - schoen 10y ago
    Stallman's version is described in http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/ch01.html http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/ch01.html or with Stallman's edits (I'm not sure if he's modified this chapter) in https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Free_as_in_Freedom_2.0/Chapter_01 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Free_as_in_Freedom_2.0/Chapte...
- kzrdude 10y ago
  his copyright and community talk has stayed with me since I heard it 12 years ago, it certainly was special (well argued) and left a lasting impression.
umberway 10y ago
Repetition of a true message to a variety of audiences may be valuable because one gains a better understanding of the common misconceptions and opposing arguments. Which leads to subtly improved arguments and rhetoric. Also there's always the possibility that the message is in fact wrong and that this may be brought to light by new criticism or fresh evidence.
ianai 10y ago
I forget who said something like this, but "the danger is not in being heard. The reality is in having a good idea and having to repeat yourself over and over."
eeZah7Ux 10y ago
You are confusing memorization, teaching and brainwashing/indoctrination. They all work by repetition but last one hurts people ability to thing rationally.
noobermin 10y ago
Somewhat true but at some point, some people look around and realize even though something is at that point part of their psyche, they come to the realization that they've been had. I am aware that some people won't believe their eyes despite seeing evidence right in front of them, but a few aren't that foolish. As that old Lincoln saying goes, you can fool some people all the time, all people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all the time.
imartin2k 10y ago
Reminds me of the zillion articles that have been published over the years explaining why net neutrality is important. Sadly, this message doesn't even stick very well.

by gizmo 10y ago

krrrh 10y ago

Another example is Ronald Reagan. I can't remember who said it, but one of the people around him was asked how he managed to become president and known as the great communicator, and the reply was along the lines of, "he made the same speech [1] every week for 25 years." [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qXBswFfh6AY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qXBswFfh6AY

CoryG89 10y ago

I take your point, but I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that all persuasion happens through repetition. Maybe I'm a bit full of myself, but I like to think that with sound enough logic, I could be persuaded from my position by hearing an argument only once. That would probably be the distinction I would draw between persuasion in general and indoctrination / brainwashing. Of course, generally indoctrination and brainwashing seem to have a much higher rate of success in changing minds, which is indeed depressing.

metaobject 10y ago
I've read geometric/mathematical proofs that have convinced me immediately. Just seeing the logical steps flow from step to step was enough to prove the assertion was true.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- spynxic 10y ago
  I consider this as an object of argument as well, however, axioms seem to be the underlying structure of repetition for all proofs [as far as I understand mathematics].
  - drdeca 10y ago
    What do you mean "structure of repetition"? Premises which are already accepted are used to conclude further ones.
erik14th 10y ago
The "brainwashing" part is not related to the repetition, but the way you "acquire" the information, "acquire" on the sense of taking it for yourself. If you learn something through repetition, it's a good thing, it is learning. If you're fooled by repetition, then it's brainwashing. Also important to note, that quite often, the one that fools you is yourself. Now to distinct between "being fooled" and "learning". I would say that learning comprises understanding, while being fooled only comprises agreement. Thing is, defining "real understanding" is a pretty hard problem.
gizmo 10y ago
Learning is repetition. Exercises. Flash cards. Midterms followed by exams. You either hear the argument once and you repeat it to yourself, or you get the argument spoon fed multiple times, but the bottom line is the same. Without repetition there is no memorization or internalization, and no learning can take place. Phrasing the challenge as "sound enough logic" puts the burden of proof in the wrong place. It implies that whenever you're not persuaded it's the fault of the other person for not being persuasive enough. That's the opposite of open-mindedness. It is exactly because of the presumption that your current beliefs are true that you won't change your mind as easily as you might think. Even Scientologists say they'll leave the church if somebody could just provide them with evidence it's all baloney, but it's a standard of proof nobody can meet. When I say all persuasion is repetition, it's really not an overstatement. Maybe you're closer to believing me this time ;-)

bluejekyll 10y ago

> This realization is also deeply depressing, because it means you're doomed to repeat yourself over and over if you want to persuade people. Yes. Embrace this. Patience is a virtue; and not getting angry because the person you've stated something to doesn't get it even the third time you've stated it. I actually find it fun to try and come up with different ways to state things such that people might better understand it.

derefr 10y ago
"Doesn't get it" isn't always (or even usually) the problem, though. It's more "wasn't listening" or "didn't have time to comprehend what you meant (or the implications of what you meant) before the conversation moved on." The biggest component of success in communication comes down to saying things enough times that your message can actually be listened to and digested at least once. You can vary the way you say things each time, but literal repetition works nearly as well, because the problem is almost never "I don't know what those words in that order mean" but rather "I didn't hear half that sentence" or "I was thinking about lunch" or "that might have been important but it just sort of passed by and I forgot."

schoen 10y ago

Richard Stallman is another example of someone who gives the same handful of speeches over and over (many times in almost exactly the same words). I've heard him describe over and over again the wastefulness of not being able to write software to interact with a university printer because the printer manufacturer choose to keep the necessary details secret.

theoh 10y ago
I've never seen Stallman speak, but that sounds like a similar situation to this anecdote from Nottingham in the 80s: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XvwNKpDUkiE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XvwNKpDUkiE It's a somewhat tedious story but it's all about the freedom to control your own hardware.
- schoen 10y ago
  Stallman's version is described in http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/ch01.html http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/ch01.html or with Stallman's edits (I'm not sure if he's modified this chapter) in https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Free_as_in_Freedom_2.0/Chapter_01 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Free_as_in_Freedom_2.0/Chapte...
kzrdude 10y ago
his copyright and community talk has stayed with me since I heard it 12 years ago, it certainly was special (well argued) and left a lasting impression.

umberway 10y ago

Repetition of a true message to a variety of audiences may be valuable because one gains a better understanding of the common misconceptions and opposing arguments. Which leads to subtly improved arguments and rhetoric. Also there's always the possibility that the message is in fact wrong and that this may be brought to light by new criticism or fresh evidence.

ianai 10y ago

I forget who said something like this, but "the danger is not in being heard. The reality is in having a good idea and having to repeat yourself over and over."

eeZah7Ux 10y ago

You are confusing memorization, teaching and brainwashing/indoctrination. They all work by repetition but last one hurts people ability to thing rationally.

noobermin 10y ago

Somewhat true but at some point, some people look around and realize even though something is at that point part of their psyche, they come to the realization that they've been had. I am aware that some people won't believe their eyes despite seeing evidence right in front of them, but a few aren't that foolish. As that old Lincoln saying goes, you can fool some people all the time, all people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all the time.

imartin2k 10y ago

Reminds me of the zillion articles that have been published over the years explaining why net neutrality is important. Sadly, this message doesn't even stick very well.