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Protect him against prosecution? He's admitted that he committed the crime and then he fled first to Hong Kong and ultimately to Russia. I'm not convinced thi

by Nrsolis 10y ago

Protect him against prosecution? He's admitted that he committed the crime and then he fled first to Hong Kong and ultimately to Russia. I'm not convinced this guy is as innocent (or much of a whistleblower) as everyone seems to believe. I know that's an unpopular opinion but compared to Drake and Binney this guy did a lot of damage to the USA.

maxander 10y ago
That depends on what exactly you mean by "damage" and who you mean by "the USA." He definitely and admittedly broke the law, though. If he's delivered to American shores the best we could even hope for him is that he's kept alive long enough for a more sympathetic administration to come into power.
mindcrime 10y ago
Protect him against prosecution? Protect him against being assassinated, and/or being railroaded by some kangaroo court and then assassinated. Or buried in solitary somewhere for the rest of his life. C'mon, no way is the USG going to let Snowden face a fair trial, and that's ignoring the fact that he shouldn't be tried at all. The man is a hero who risked everything to expose crimes committed by the US government. Who cares about the technicality of whether or not he violated some inane statute? He did us all a favor and - IMO - we have something of a moral obligation to help him stay alive.
- Nrsolis 10y ago
  Technicality? This guy ferried gigabytes of secrets out of a secure installation, fled to a foreign country and was likely protected by one or two hostile foreign intelligence services, and then made a movie where he admitted the whole thing. IANAL, but it seems like the facts of the case make this a pretty open-and-shut case. You don't get much more solid evidence than the accused admitting to the crime. I'll note that you don't get to violate the law for "a good cause" especially when you, in your sole judgement, decided that the government you screwed over, deserved that screwing. I'd argue that with the ACLU behind him, he's gonna get a much fairer trial than any one of the hundreds of other folks that get railroaded in our justice system because they are too poor to afford competent counsel. So let's stop with the hyperbole. Nobody is gonna kill that guy. They are gonna keep him alive at a SuperMax prison in Colorado, right next to Hansen and Ames. A long life behind bars makes a good example for the next traitor who gets an itch to help out our adversaries.
  - mindcrime 10y ago
    So let's stop with the hyperbole. A long life behind bars makes a good example for the next traitor who gets an itch to help out our adversaries. LOL, way to contradict yourself. Whatever, believe what you want, but Snowden is a hero and we all owe him a tremendous debt of gratitude.
    - Nrsolis 10y ago
      What contradiction? The guy is guilty. He knows he doesn't stand a chance in court. This guy is looking at several life sentences for his crimes. So this guy can get the fairest trial of all time and STILL go to prison forever. A trial isn't unfair because you don't agree with the result. He broke the law. DO you think he deserves to go free after what he's done? Seriously. I can't walk down the street and shoot someone because he was a "bad guy" in only my judgement. I'm going to go to jail for murder. Whether or not the guy was actually a "bad guy" or not is irrelevant. As an individual in our society, you don't get to unilaterally take an action against the law and then expect to escape the consequences. If this guy was a TRUE whistleblower, he'd have taken an important document, one implicating the NSA in wrongdoing, to a respected new outlet like "60 Minutes" or the NY Times or the WSJ, unmasked himself, and expected the government to prosecute him. THAT is how you martyr yourself for the common good. This guy did everything that you'd expect an rogue, formerly-controlled asset of a foreign intelligence service to do. He took a radical action to force the hand of his FSB or SVR handlers and then fled to their open arms expecting them to keep him safe. I think he stopped off in Hong Kong to see if the Chinese would be willing to take him in so he could escape his fate in the USA. When they declined, he beat feet to the Soviets. Don't believe the hype. That guy was a recruited asset who decided he had enough. All of the rest was for show.
      - mindcrime 10y ago
        What contradiction? Really? You can't see the contradiction in imploring that we "stop the hyperbole", followed by labeling Snowden a "traitor"? DO you think he deserves to go free after what he's done? Absolutely. He should be given a medal and a tickertape parade. He's one of the few real heroes of our age. I can't walk down the street and shoot someone because he was a "bad guy" in only my judgement. No, but that metaphor is totally unrelated to what Snowden did. That guy was a recruited asset who decided he had enough. All of the rest was for show. Great, I'll be eagerly awaiting the mounds of evidence you must have for this seemingly slanderous accusation...
kem 10y ago
I'm someone who sees Snowden as a whistleblower rather than criminal. Of course he did damage to the US, but to me that was really ultimately the result of blowback due to the US's own practices. If the US is engaging in unethical behavior, and they suffer as a result of getting caught, it's the US government fault's not Snowden's. Honestly, the current climate is terrifying to me, and I don't understand how anyone can see it differently. A quick glance at Trump's allegiences, with Putin, Duterte, and Ergodon, speaks volumes about the nature of what's happening. The immigration crackdowns today are horrifying, if for no other reason that they seem targeted against locales resisting Trump, and because they seem to be done with such little regard for due process (my guess is if this continues, they will end up deporting a legitimate US citizen, if they haven't already). Trump will start mass deportations of anyone resembling a foreigner, even if they're US citizens, and not let them back into the country to be heard a fair trial. His indiscriminateness is already evident in the EO against immigration from the middle east. What bothers me as much as the idea of returning Snowden is a sense that this is all occurring because of collusion between the Russian government and Trump. Russia is amassing tanks in Ukraine, there's strong evidence of Trump's election team colluding with Putin's government, and now you have Snowden as a trophy? Sure, the US ambassador mentioned something about continuing resistance to Russia's involvement in Ukraine, but that's undermined by Trump's own statements about Russia. To me it looks like what's going to happen is Snowden is going to be sent to Trump, Trump will parade his execution like he's Bin Laden, and then will turn a blind eye to Putin invading Ukraine. It all reeks of authoritarian corruption. Any moral claims Trump might have about Snowden are undermined and nullified by his own corrupt business dealings with Putin and Russia. Corruption corrupts, it taints, it rots and undermines, and this is a perfect example of it. We can argue until we're blue in the face about Snowden's guilt, but if Snowden's extradition and trial is occurring in the context of Trump using his position to for his own personal financial gain, at the cost of the US supporting corrupt authoritarian regimes, it's nullified morally in my opinion. At that point, Trump blew it ethically, and Snowden won.

by Nrsolis 10y ago

maxander 10y ago

That depends on what exactly you mean by "damage" and who you mean by "the USA." He definitely and admittedly broke the law, though. If he's delivered to American shores the best we could even hope for him is that he's kept alive long enough for a more sympathetic administration to come into power.

mindcrime 10y ago

Protect him against prosecution? Protect him against being assassinated, and/or being railroaded by some kangaroo court and then assassinated. Or buried in solitary somewhere for the rest of his life. C'mon, no way is the USG going to let Snowden face a fair trial, and that's ignoring the fact that he shouldn't be tried at all. The man is a hero who risked everything to expose crimes committed by the US government. Who cares about the technicality of whether or not he violated some inane statute? He did us all a favor and - IMO - we have something of a moral obligation to help him stay alive.

Nrsolis 10y ago
Technicality? This guy ferried gigabytes of secrets out of a secure installation, fled to a foreign country and was likely protected by one or two hostile foreign intelligence services, and then made a movie where he admitted the whole thing. IANAL, but it seems like the facts of the case make this a pretty open-and-shut case. You don't get much more solid evidence than the accused admitting to the crime. I'll note that you don't get to violate the law for "a good cause" especially when you, in your sole judgement, decided that the government you screwed over, deserved that screwing. I'd argue that with the ACLU behind him, he's gonna get a much fairer trial than any one of the hundreds of other folks that get railroaded in our justice system because they are too poor to afford competent counsel. So let's stop with the hyperbole. Nobody is gonna kill that guy. They are gonna keep him alive at a SuperMax prison in Colorado, right next to Hansen and Ames. A long life behind bars makes a good example for the next traitor who gets an itch to help out our adversaries.
- mindcrime 10y ago
  So let's stop with the hyperbole. A long life behind bars makes a good example for the next traitor who gets an itch to help out our adversaries. LOL, way to contradict yourself. Whatever, believe what you want, but Snowden is a hero and we all owe him a tremendous debt of gratitude.
  - Nrsolis 10y ago
    What contradiction? The guy is guilty. He knows he doesn't stand a chance in court. This guy is looking at several life sentences for his crimes. So this guy can get the fairest trial of all time and STILL go to prison forever. A trial isn't unfair because you don't agree with the result. He broke the law. DO you think he deserves to go free after what he's done? Seriously. I can't walk down the street and shoot someone because he was a "bad guy" in only my judgement. I'm going to go to jail for murder. Whether or not the guy was actually a "bad guy" or not is irrelevant. As an individual in our society, you don't get to unilaterally take an action against the law and then expect to escape the consequences. If this guy was a TRUE whistleblower, he'd have taken an important document, one implicating the NSA in wrongdoing, to a respected new outlet like "60 Minutes" or the NY Times or the WSJ, unmasked himself, and expected the government to prosecute him. THAT is how you martyr yourself for the common good. This guy did everything that you'd expect an rogue, formerly-controlled asset of a foreign intelligence service to do. He took a radical action to force the hand of his FSB or SVR handlers and then fled to their open arms expecting them to keep him safe. I think he stopped off in Hong Kong to see if the Chinese would be willing to take him in so he could escape his fate in the USA. When they declined, he beat feet to the Soviets. Don't believe the hype. That guy was a recruited asset who decided he had enough. All of the rest was for show.
    - mindcrime 10y ago
      What contradiction? Really? You can't see the contradiction in imploring that we "stop the hyperbole", followed by labeling Snowden a "traitor"? DO you think he deserves to go free after what he's done? Absolutely. He should be given a medal and a tickertape parade. He's one of the few real heroes of our age. I can't walk down the street and shoot someone because he was a "bad guy" in only my judgement. No, but that metaphor is totally unrelated to what Snowden did. That guy was a recruited asset who decided he had enough. All of the rest was for show. Great, I'll be eagerly awaiting the mounds of evidence you must have for this seemingly slanderous accusation...

kem 10y ago

I'm someone who sees Snowden as a whistleblower rather than criminal. Of course he did damage to the US, but to me that was really ultimately the result of blowback due to the US's own practices. If the US is engaging in unethical behavior, and they suffer as a result of getting caught, it's the US government fault's not Snowden's. Honestly, the current climate is terrifying to me, and I don't understand how anyone can see it differently. A quick glance at Trump's allegiences, with Putin, Duterte, and Ergodon, speaks volumes about the nature of what's happening. The immigration crackdowns today are horrifying, if for no other reason that they seem targeted against locales resisting Trump, and because they seem to be done with such little regard for due process (my guess is if this continues, they will end up deporting a legitimate US citizen, if they haven't already). Trump will start mass deportations of anyone resembling a foreigner, even if they're US citizens, and not let them back into the country to be heard a fair trial. His indiscriminateness is already evident in the EO against immigration from the middle east. What bothers me as much as the idea of returning Snowden is a sense that this is all occurring because of collusion between the Russian government and Trump. Russia is amassing tanks in Ukraine, there's strong evidence of Trump's election team colluding with Putin's government, and now you have Snowden as a trophy? Sure, the US ambassador mentioned something about continuing resistance to Russia's involvement in Ukraine, but that's undermined by Trump's own statements about Russia. To me it looks like what's going to happen is Snowden is going to be sent to Trump, Trump will parade his execution like he's Bin Laden, and then will turn a blind eye to Putin invading Ukraine. It all reeks of authoritarian corruption. Any moral claims Trump might have about Snowden are undermined and nullified by his own corrupt business dealings with Putin and Russia. Corruption corrupts, it taints, it rots and undermines, and this is a perfect example of it. We can argue until we're blue in the face about Snowden's guilt, but if Snowden's extradition and trial is occurring in the context of Trump using his position to for his own personal financial gain, at the cost of the US supporting corrupt authoritarian regimes, it's nullified morally in my opinion. At that point, Trump blew it ethically, and Snowden won.