3 ms·

Does anyone know why we never see new apartment and office building with shops on the street level? This seems like the most natural configuration for dense ci

Does anyone know why we never see new apartment and office building with shops on the street level? This seems like the most natural configuration for dense city, and SF has quite a bit of land specifically zoned in this way. See the orange regions here: https://williamhe4planning.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/sf_citywide_zoning_map_jan2013.jpg https://williamhe4planning.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/sf_ci... But almost all modern buildings I've seen, both residential and commercial, have huge lobbies. This means the shops are very thinly distributed at street-level, even in downtown areas with tall skyscrapers.

chrismealy 10y ago
New buildings tend to have boring street-levle commercial spaces (banks, tanning salons, etc) because the underground parking requires ramps at street level, and that makes the shops shallow. Interesting businesses generally need a fair amount of space back (like old buildings all have). Basically if you build for cars you're going to lose pedestrian amenities.
- jessriedel 10y ago
  This may be a contributing factor, especially in places where they are building small apartment building and each has a garage, but I don't think it's a dominant factor. First, a couple of ramps that go underground is really not that much space in the footing of a big tower. I see old neighborhoods with lots of shops that nevertheless have underground garages. Second, I don't think shops are that deep. New city blocks, especially hosting skyscrapers, are much deeper than the typical blocks in (say) the West Village. Those shops seem to do fine with very little floorspace.
forrestthewoods 10y ago
That's literally the only type of building I see being built in Seattle. For both towers and 4 to 8 story compounds.
- jessriedel 10y ago
  Like, a 30-story tower where more than 50% of the street-level exposure is shops? I believe you, but it's not been my experience in a bunch of cities.
jandrewrogers 10y ago
Much of Seattle, and virtually all new construction for the last several years, is like this. I think it may be a requirement of the city. It is one of the reasons many people live here without a car, or own one but never use it, if they live vaguely close to the urban core. Many of the outlying neighborhoods are similar too, though not as dense. Seattle high-rises usually have retail/restaurants on the 1st and sometimes 2nd floor; if the building is tall, there may be some commercial office space on some floors above retail; and then residential is the majority of the building above that. It means you generally don't have to walk very far for anything. From a quality of life standpoint, I love it. I only need to drive if I am leaving the city.
crooked-v 10y ago
Most of the high-density areas in Portland have a majority of buildings with ground-level retail and restaurants. With that said, most of that is buildings of 5-10 stories, though there are scattered high-rises with ground-floor retail, including a few where the inside lobby is open to the public and is effectively a small mall with convenience stores, small restaurants, etc.
dangjc 10y ago
FHA and HUD loans cap the ratio of commercial to residential, and so strongly favor single use developments. Banks take their cue from this and are also less willing to lend to such projects. It's a shame because in many cities, these are the most vibrant neighborhoods that are definitely commercially viable, though maybe not as lucrative much as a mall or exclusive condo. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/2/12/roadblock-on-main-street https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/2/12/roadblock-on-m...

chrismealy 10y ago

New buildings tend to have boring street-levle commercial spaces (banks, tanning salons, etc) because the underground parking requires ramps at street level, and that makes the shops shallow. Interesting businesses generally need a fair amount of space back (like old buildings all have). Basically if you build for cars you're going to lose pedestrian amenities.

jessriedel 10y ago
This may be a contributing factor, especially in places where they are building small apartment building and each has a garage, but I don't think it's a dominant factor. First, a couple of ramps that go underground is really not that much space in the footing of a big tower. I see old neighborhoods with lots of shops that nevertheless have underground garages. Second, I don't think shops are that deep. New city blocks, especially hosting skyscrapers, are much deeper than the typical blocks in (say) the West Village. Those shops seem to do fine with very little floorspace.

forrestthewoods 10y ago

That's literally the only type of building I see being built in Seattle. For both towers and 4 to 8 story compounds.

jessriedel 10y ago
Like, a 30-story tower where more than 50% of the street-level exposure is shops? I believe you, but it's not been my experience in a bunch of cities.

jandrewrogers 10y ago

Much of Seattle, and virtually all new construction for the last several years, is like this. I think it may be a requirement of the city. It is one of the reasons many people live here without a car, or own one but never use it, if they live vaguely close to the urban core. Many of the outlying neighborhoods are similar too, though not as dense. Seattle high-rises usually have retail/restaurants on the 1st and sometimes 2nd floor; if the building is tall, there may be some commercial office space on some floors above retail; and then residential is the majority of the building above that. It means you generally don't have to walk very far for anything. From a quality of life standpoint, I love it. I only need to drive if I am leaving the city.

crooked-v 10y ago

Most of the high-density areas in Portland have a majority of buildings with ground-level retail and restaurants. With that said, most of that is buildings of 5-10 stories, though there are scattered high-rises with ground-floor retail, including a few where the inside lobby is open to the public and is effectively a small mall with convenience stores, small restaurants, etc.

dangjc 10y ago

FHA and HUD loans cap the ratio of commercial to residential, and so strongly favor single use developments. Banks take their cue from this and are also less willing to lend to such projects. It's a shame because in many cities, these are the most vibrant neighborhoods that are definitely commercially viable, though maybe not as lucrative much as a mall or exclusive condo. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/2/12/roadblock-on-main-street https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/2/12/roadblock-on-m...