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I'm curious about Pizzagate. Some of those emails are clearly trying to hide something. The language in them is obviously "code" for something or other. Has the

I'm curious about Pizzagate. Some of those emails are clearly trying to hide something. The language in them is obviously "code" for something or other. Has there been any other plausible/implausible theories apart from the Pizzagate one? Edit: Getting downvoted for asking a question. To be clear I have no idea what the emails are about and zero agenda here. The emails came across as very weird to me which is why I am asking.

throwaway420 10y ago
We can't know for certain what's going on there, but you will notice that some people are desperate to declare that this has been "debunked" without there being any sort of investigation.
- knowaveragejoe 10y ago
  An official investigation, no. But if you simply look at the 'evidence' that's being promoted, it falls apart pretty easily under any real scrutiny. Same goes for most vast conspiracy theories - chains of increasingly unlikely assumptions that must remain unbroken in order for the entire theory to hold any water at all.
- tmuir 10y ago
  We can't know for certain if there has been an investigation, but you will notice that some people are desperate to declare that this has not been investigated by the relevant authorities.
  - throwaway420 10y ago
    Supposedly, somebody filed a FOIA request to get info on the DC police's investigation into these allegations and despite previously saying that their investigation hasn't yielded any proof of a crime, it turns out that the police never even investigated it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omlQHWrgmd4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omlQHWrgmd4 Nothing conclusive here, but again, there are so many voices here who are so hysterically adamant about something that can't be proven either way that it makes me think that there's more to this.
    - tmuir 10y ago
      Perhaps the DC police are part of the pedophile ring? I haven't heard anyone disprove that yet, and it would make the conspiracy even more evil. I'm stunned that you haven't made this obvious leap of logic. The hysteria stems from the concept that your algorithm for detecting conspiracy is to grant credence to theories in direct proportion to their nefariousness. Your hypotheses are not falsifiable. This guarantees that you will reject reasonable and logical explanations which are discordant with the conspiracy. Your last sentence is a perfect example of this. The most villainous explanation for what you see as hysterical adamance is that every commenter here is covering up a pedophile ring.
      - throwaway420 10y ago
        That last sentence wasn't too precisely worded so I can understand your response...but when I said "so many voices here" I was more thinking about the media entities who were so adamant that there's nothing to see here than the genuine posters on this site. Many of the posters here are well-intentioned, I'm sure, but misled by the media. Pedophile rings have been uncovered in many walks of life: religion, sports, hollywood and media, business, foreign governments, even Dennis Hastert and many others. Yet somehow the current US political establishment is immune to this? Look, I'm not saying to lock up anybody without a trial or anything. We admittedly don't know if there's even a crime here yet. I just think the pile of circumstantial evidence is enough to at least warrant some kind of investigation. The media declared this "fake news" and brushed much of the weirdest facts under the rug.
        tmuir 10y ago
        The fallacy you are touting is that it is established fact that the media is misleading its viewers with respect to the pizzagate conspiracy. For this to be the case, both you and the media would need to possess the truth. Since that is clearly not the case, you are once again jumping to the conclusion that the conspiracy must be true, and from there, working backwards to the media misleading people. You are conflating possibility with actuality. Yes the media has misled it's viewers in the past. The media will mislead it's viewers in the future. But these facts are not sufficient to logically conclude that the media is misleading it's viewers on the pizzagate conspiracy. Journalism is not 100% misleading. Yes pedophile rings have existed in the past, and will likely exist in the future. However, starting from the position that all organizations are assumed to be pedophile rings until proven otherwise is a complete inversion of our entire judicial system. The existence of other pedophile rings within powerful organizations does not infer that all powerful organizations contain pedophile rings. Bias in journalism is an unavoidable reality. Choosing which stories to report upon is an example of bias. But the existence of bias does not infer an agenda. It is possible that journalists have an agenda, but it is not a requirement. A simple analogy is that all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Many of your arguments are analogous to saying that since some rectangles are squares, and we can't directly observe this particular rectangle, we must conclude that this rectangle is a square.
petejodo 10y ago
I think you're getting downvoted because you made the claim that "Some of those emails are clearly trying to hide something" without providing any references to such emails. Maybe post some links to the emails you're referring to so others not in on the loop can join in
- rorykoehler 10y ago
  This email thread in particular: https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/12/1223066_re-get-ready-for-chicago-hot-dog-friday-.html https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/12/1223066_re-get-ready-f...
abritinthebay 10y ago
Would you say that you're Just Asking Questions?
tmuir 10y ago
This really gets at the heart of the allure of conspiracy theories. If you are already predisposed to believe that something nefarious must be being discussed, the simple presence of ambiguity in the discussion becomes "evidence" of conspiracy. But that ambiguity is likely the result of the readers of the email not having very much context into the conversation. Email is not the only form of communication these people use to communicate. They also speak on the phone, as well as face to face. They likely use instant messaging and SMS. They also likely pass messages through intermediaries. They likely share memos. This is rational human behavior common to nearly every person in the world with access to the relevant technologies. What is truly maddening about conspiracy theorists, especially those who have gained a following, is that even the simplest, most rational explanation can easily be cast as a coverup of the conspiracy. If you have already inspired fear in someone, and gained their general trust, you can perpetuate that fear indefinitely, so long as undeniable evidence to the contrary is not presented.
joshbert 10y ago
This is my exact experience when asking questions about a broad subject that has to do with politics. You get downvoted, therefore information doesn't flow properly your way, which leaves people just as ignorant as they come in and resentful that they get punished for asking serious questions in a respectful tone.
geofft 10y ago
I don't think the language is code for anything. Is it really so implausible that Podesta had a handkerchief with a map that seems pizza-related, and isn't worried about getting it back? And if it is code, why is it code for a massive child prostitution ring? Because 4chan or UrbanDictionary once used "pizza" in this way? Why do we think Podesta documents his work on 4chan or UrbanDictionary? Like, yes, the handkerchief code is a thing, but is everyone who owns a white handkerchief a pedophile?

throwaway420 10y ago

We can't know for certain what's going on there, but you will notice that some people are desperate to declare that this has been "debunked" without there being any sort of investigation.

knowaveragejoe 10y ago
An official investigation, no. But if you simply look at the 'evidence' that's being promoted, it falls apart pretty easily under any real scrutiny. Same goes for most vast conspiracy theories - chains of increasingly unlikely assumptions that must remain unbroken in order for the entire theory to hold any water at all.
tmuir 10y ago
We can't know for certain if there has been an investigation, but you will notice that some people are desperate to declare that this has not been investigated by the relevant authorities.
- throwaway420 10y ago
  Supposedly, somebody filed a FOIA request to get info on the DC police's investigation into these allegations and despite previously saying that their investigation hasn't yielded any proof of a crime, it turns out that the police never even investigated it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omlQHWrgmd4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omlQHWrgmd4 Nothing conclusive here, but again, there are so many voices here who are so hysterically adamant about something that can't be proven either way that it makes me think that there's more to this.
  - tmuir 10y ago
    Perhaps the DC police are part of the pedophile ring? I haven't heard anyone disprove that yet, and it would make the conspiracy even more evil. I'm stunned that you haven't made this obvious leap of logic. The hysteria stems from the concept that your algorithm for detecting conspiracy is to grant credence to theories in direct proportion to their nefariousness. Your hypotheses are not falsifiable. This guarantees that you will reject reasonable and logical explanations which are discordant with the conspiracy. Your last sentence is a perfect example of this. The most villainous explanation for what you see as hysterical adamance is that every commenter here is covering up a pedophile ring.
    - throwaway420 10y ago
      That last sentence wasn't too precisely worded so I can understand your response...but when I said "so many voices here" I was more thinking about the media entities who were so adamant that there's nothing to see here than the genuine posters on this site. Many of the posters here are well-intentioned, I'm sure, but misled by the media. Pedophile rings have been uncovered in many walks of life: religion, sports, hollywood and media, business, foreign governments, even Dennis Hastert and many others. Yet somehow the current US political establishment is immune to this? Look, I'm not saying to lock up anybody without a trial or anything. We admittedly don't know if there's even a crime here yet. I just think the pile of circumstantial evidence is enough to at least warrant some kind of investigation. The media declared this "fake news" and brushed much of the weirdest facts under the rug.
      - tmuir 10y ago
        The fallacy you are touting is that it is established fact that the media is misleading its viewers with respect to the pizzagate conspiracy. For this to be the case, both you and the media would need to possess the truth. Since that is clearly not the case, you are once again jumping to the conclusion that the conspiracy must be true, and from there, working backwards to the media misleading people. You are conflating possibility with actuality. Yes the media has misled it's viewers in the past. The media will mislead it's viewers in the future. But these facts are not sufficient to logically conclude that the media is misleading it's viewers on the pizzagate conspiracy. Journalism is not 100% misleading. Yes pedophile rings have existed in the past, and will likely exist in the future. However, starting from the position that all organizations are assumed to be pedophile rings until proven otherwise is a complete inversion of our entire judicial system. The existence of other pedophile rings within powerful organizations does not infer that all powerful organizations contain pedophile rings. Bias in journalism is an unavoidable reality. Choosing which stories to report upon is an example of bias. But the existence of bias does not infer an agenda. It is possible that journalists have an agenda, but it is not a requirement. A simple analogy is that all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Many of your arguments are analogous to saying that since some rectangles are squares, and we can't directly observe this particular rectangle, we must conclude that this rectangle is a square.

petejodo 10y ago

I think you're getting downvoted because you made the claim that "Some of those emails are clearly trying to hide something" without providing any references to such emails. Maybe post some links to the emails you're referring to so others not in on the loop can join in

rorykoehler 10y ago
This email thread in particular: https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/12/1223066_re-get-ready-for-chicago-hot-dog-friday-.html https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/12/1223066_re-get-ready-f...

abritinthebay 10y ago

Would you say that you're Just Asking Questions?

tmuir 10y ago

This really gets at the heart of the allure of conspiracy theories. If you are already predisposed to believe that something nefarious must be being discussed, the simple presence of ambiguity in the discussion becomes "evidence" of conspiracy. But that ambiguity is likely the result of the readers of the email not having very much context into the conversation. Email is not the only form of communication these people use to communicate. They also speak on the phone, as well as face to face. They likely use instant messaging and SMS. They also likely pass messages through intermediaries. They likely share memos. This is rational human behavior common to nearly every person in the world with access to the relevant technologies. What is truly maddening about conspiracy theorists, especially those who have gained a following, is that even the simplest, most rational explanation can easily be cast as a coverup of the conspiracy. If you have already inspired fear in someone, and gained their general trust, you can perpetuate that fear indefinitely, so long as undeniable evidence to the contrary is not presented.

joshbert 10y ago

This is my exact experience when asking questions about a broad subject that has to do with politics. You get downvoted, therefore information doesn't flow properly your way, which leaves people just as ignorant as they come in and resentful that they get punished for asking serious questions in a respectful tone.

geofft 10y ago

I don't think the language is code for anything. Is it really so implausible that Podesta had a handkerchief with a map that seems pizza-related, and isn't worried about getting it back? And if it is code, why is it code for a massive child prostitution ring? Because 4chan or UrbanDictionary once used "pizza" in this way? Why do we think Podesta documents his work on 4chan or UrbanDictionary? Like, yes, the handkerchief code is a thing, but is everyone who owns a white handkerchief a pedophile?