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Netgate/pfSense has been notoriously anti-community, with their own co-founder attacking other projects, including a recent fork called OPNSense. They've also

Netgate/pfSense has been notoriously anti-community, with their own co-founder attacking other projects, including a recent fork called OPNSense. They've also been very hostile towards the OpenBSD developers, and project. Despite the fact they've effectively built a business on OpenBSD innovations, like pf and CARP, even incorporating the name 'pf' into their trademark having not contributed a bit of code.. n̶o̶r̶ ̶a̶ ̶d̶i̶m̶e̶ (but perhaps some hw). But feel free to keep using it.. no need to take my word for it. https://www.openbsd.org/donations.html https://www.openbsd.org/donations.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/contributors.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/contributors.html

stsp 10y ago
I won't defend their demeaning public behaviour towards OpenBSD. I find it revolting. But they did make one donation to this OpenBSD developer. They sent me 3 rcc-ve boards which I am still using for development: http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/www/want.html#rev1.945 http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/www/want.html#rev1.... They took much more than they have given (which the source code licence allows them to do, even if it's morally wrong). Claiming they never gave anything at all is incorrect.
- notaplumber 10y ago
  I've edited my post, will remove it if you think it does more harm to highlight their actions than good.
  - stsp 10y ago
    Please don't remove your post. Pointing out these issues is very important, and making one donation should not indemnify people who behave in this way.
- ianai 10y ago
  Not necessarily a question for just you, but what have they done, exactly?
- cr0sh 10y ago
  > They took much more than they have given (which the source code licence allows them to do, even if it's morally wrong). I don't want to start a flame war, but if the BSD license allows for them to do this, why is it morally wrong? That is - how can you complain when the license explicitly allows for this? If you (not you personally, of course - but the OpenBSD project) didn't want this to happen, then the license would need to be changed to prevent it. Of course then, companies wouldn't be as willing to use the code, as we tend to see with the GPL. But if companies are just going to take the code, modify it, and not contribute the changes back (or contribute little back), where's the loss by using another license? If the loss is "but the code then won't be used in the greater ecosystem", why complain when it is? Again - I'm not trying to cause a flame war; everybody has their license and needs. I'm just trying to understand why there is complaints when code isn't contributed back under the BSD license, when it explicitly allows for this. Furthermore, I am wondering if there is anything we can do about it, that doesn't cause the kind of ire to rise when the GPL is invoked instead. Perhaps there isn't a solution, but I'd love to hear ideas on the subject.
  - notaplumber 10y ago
    > if the BSD license allows for them to do this, why is it morally wrong? Because even if I buy you a 'free beer', I can still think you're a jerk if you throw it back in my face.
    - Johnny555 10y ago
      I think a more apt analogy would be if you buy me a "free beer" and I drink it, then you're upset because I didn't buy you a "free beer" in exchange. If the beer wasn't meant to be free, then don't license it as "free beer".
      - lvh 10y ago
        The specific claim was not that pfSense merely used the technology, but also that they were hostile to a variety of community projects, including OpenBSD itself.
      - 10y ago
- unethical_ban 10y ago
  Behavior is one thing, but what is so wrong about "taking" more than "giving"? Isn't the development of a firewall distribution, and the provision of professional services around it, a good service in itself? Kind of like Greg Hartman fussing about Canonical not doing kernel contributions, as if that's the sole metric for being a Linux distro.
- na85 10y ago
  Isn't being able to take more than I give the entire point of the bsd license?
- gonzo 10y ago
  I've also reversed my stance on openbsd, and personally apologized to Henning. But none of that is public before now.
  - notaplumber 10y ago
    Glad to hear it! I hope to see some more comradery between the two projects going forward.
    - sverige 10y ago
      I second that, and hope that you might find a way to build pfSense on the most recent pf. (I know, if I want that, shut up and hack.)
      - gonzo 10y ago
        the most direct path would be to get the OpenBSD pf into FreeBSD, but including all the performance work that has been done.
ComputerGuru 10y ago
Eh, I wouldn't use the response to OpnSense against them. I tried the first few "releases" and walked away screaming (this was before I ever used pfSense). Lost configurations, routing issues, locked out of the interface, stability problems, and more. But it looked pretty, right?
AsyncAwait 10y ago
Thanks for pointing that out, I've never heard of it. Can you provide some links to some of these interactions? Would love to research alternatives if that is indeed the case.
cbuechler 10y ago
To be clear, no co-founder has been responsible for any of that. You're referring to Jim Thompson, who purchased my other co-founder's stake in it. None of the original people are involved anymore. I left last year for Ubiquiti. Glad I no longer have to defend things. I'll leave it at that.
- jug5 10y ago
  Yeah because Ubiquiti is the leader in quality networking products. Oh wait.. The unifi line has no features and the entire company has no acceptable level of customer support. Not surprised the value went down 13% overnight...
- trome 10y ago
  Uhh, you got on the wrong ship if you think Ubiquiti has nothing to defend, your employer is a constant and consistent GPL violator[1], and due to the constant failures and overpromisiong on features (TDMA in particular) alongside the serious supply chain issues Ubiquiti has had over the past decade, your major customers are dumping your hardware en mass[2]. I don't see Solar or IoT cameras/switches/power strips saving Ubiquiti either, the fiber CPE might buy your company a few months of runway, if supply issues don't strangle it tho. 1 - http://libertybsd.net/ubiquiti/ http://libertybsd.net/ubiquiti/ 2 - https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31113160-ePMP-Elevate https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31113160-ePMP-Elevate
  - gonzo 10y ago
    Also, huge shareholder suits: http://digitaljournal.com/pr/3229427 http://digitaljournal.com/pr/3229427
- SanDiegoSalsa 10y ago
  You mean "glad you no longer have to make excuses for your inability to lead the project into the future." The recent changes in direction and actual tackling the hard problems has not gone unnoticed by me / others in the community. Kudos to the current team.
  - 10y ago
gonzo 10y ago
FreeBSD is our upstream, and we donate quite a bit there.

stsp 10y ago

I won't defend their demeaning public behaviour towards OpenBSD. I find it revolting. But they did make one donation to this OpenBSD developer. They sent me 3 rcc-ve boards which I am still using for development: http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/www/want.html#rev1.945 http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/www/want.html#rev1.... They took much more than they have given (which the source code licence allows them to do, even if it's morally wrong). Claiming they never gave anything at all is incorrect.

notaplumber 10y ago
I've edited my post, will remove it if you think it does more harm to highlight their actions than good.
- stsp 10y ago
  Please don't remove your post. Pointing out these issues is very important, and making one donation should not indemnify people who behave in this way.
ianai 10y ago
Not necessarily a question for just you, but what have they done, exactly?
cr0sh 10y ago
> They took much more than they have given (which the source code licence allows them to do, even if it's morally wrong). I don't want to start a flame war, but if the BSD license allows for them to do this, why is it morally wrong? That is - how can you complain when the license explicitly allows for this? If you (not you personally, of course - but the OpenBSD project) didn't want this to happen, then the license would need to be changed to prevent it. Of course then, companies wouldn't be as willing to use the code, as we tend to see with the GPL. But if companies are just going to take the code, modify it, and not contribute the changes back (or contribute little back), where's the loss by using another license? If the loss is "but the code then won't be used in the greater ecosystem", why complain when it is? Again - I'm not trying to cause a flame war; everybody has their license and needs. I'm just trying to understand why there is complaints when code isn't contributed back under the BSD license, when it explicitly allows for this. Furthermore, I am wondering if there is anything we can do about it, that doesn't cause the kind of ire to rise when the GPL is invoked instead. Perhaps there isn't a solution, but I'd love to hear ideas on the subject.
- notaplumber 10y ago
  > if the BSD license allows for them to do this, why is it morally wrong? Because even if I buy you a 'free beer', I can still think you're a jerk if you throw it back in my face.
  - Johnny555 10y ago
    I think a more apt analogy would be if you buy me a "free beer" and I drink it, then you're upset because I didn't buy you a "free beer" in exchange. If the beer wasn't meant to be free, then don't license it as "free beer".
    - lvh 10y ago
      The specific claim was not that pfSense merely used the technology, but also that they were hostile to a variety of community projects, including OpenBSD itself.
    - 10y ago
unethical_ban 10y ago
Behavior is one thing, but what is so wrong about "taking" more than "giving"? Isn't the development of a firewall distribution, and the provision of professional services around it, a good service in itself? Kind of like Greg Hartman fussing about Canonical not doing kernel contributions, as if that's the sole metric for being a Linux distro.
na85 10y ago
Isn't being able to take more than I give the entire point of the bsd license?
gonzo 10y ago
I've also reversed my stance on openbsd, and personally apologized to Henning. But none of that is public before now.
- notaplumber 10y ago
  Glad to hear it! I hope to see some more comradery between the two projects going forward.
  - sverige 10y ago
    I second that, and hope that you might find a way to build pfSense on the most recent pf. (I know, if I want that, shut up and hack.)
    - gonzo 10y ago
      the most direct path would be to get the OpenBSD pf into FreeBSD, but including all the performance work that has been done.

ComputerGuru 10y ago

Eh, I wouldn't use the response to OpnSense against them. I tried the first few "releases" and walked away screaming (this was before I ever used pfSense). Lost configurations, routing issues, locked out of the interface, stability problems, and more. But it looked pretty, right?

AsyncAwait 10y ago

Thanks for pointing that out, I've never heard of it. Can you provide some links to some of these interactions? Would love to research alternatives if that is indeed the case.

cbuechler 10y ago

To be clear, no co-founder has been responsible for any of that. You're referring to Jim Thompson, who purchased my other co-founder's stake in it. None of the original people are involved anymore. I left last year for Ubiquiti. Glad I no longer have to defend things. I'll leave it at that.

jug5 10y ago
Yeah because Ubiquiti is the leader in quality networking products. Oh wait.. The unifi line has no features and the entire company has no acceptable level of customer support. Not surprised the value went down 13% overnight...
trome 10y ago
Uhh, you got on the wrong ship if you think Ubiquiti has nothing to defend, your employer is a constant and consistent GPL violator[1], and due to the constant failures and overpromisiong on features (TDMA in particular) alongside the serious supply chain issues Ubiquiti has had over the past decade, your major customers are dumping your hardware en mass[2]. I don't see Solar or IoT cameras/switches/power strips saving Ubiquiti either, the fiber CPE might buy your company a few months of runway, if supply issues don't strangle it tho. 1 - http://libertybsd.net/ubiquiti/ http://libertybsd.net/ubiquiti/ 2 - https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31113160-ePMP-Elevate https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31113160-ePMP-Elevate
- gonzo 10y ago
  Also, huge shareholder suits: http://digitaljournal.com/pr/3229427 http://digitaljournal.com/pr/3229427
SanDiegoSalsa 10y ago
You mean "glad you no longer have to make excuses for your inability to lead the project into the future." The recent changes in direction and actual tackling the hard problems has not gone unnoticed by me / others in the community. Kudos to the current team.
- 10y ago

gonzo 10y ago

FreeBSD is our upstream, and we donate quite a bit there.