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I'm not advocating that exclusion is the main solution (see my last paragraph), but it boils down to: do you think these events are a bad thing? Do they have a

• bmelton 10y ago
  > but it boils down to: do you think these events are a bad thing? And I guess what I failed to express that it doesn't have to be a binary 'good' or 'bad'. I personally don't judge inclusivity or exclusivity as either good or bad, nor do I see why anyone should, beyond determining what it means to them. If Boy Scouts of America want to exclude certain demographics, fine -- it's their club after all, but I don't want to participate in that, so I won't. Similarly, if Girls Who Code want to exclude certain demographics, that is also fine with me, and I still don't want to participate. I'm not making a value judgement on whether or not they're good or bad, but am instead deciding whether or not I personally want to be party to exclusion. For me, usually, the answer to that question is 'No'.
  • kohanz 10y ago
    That's totally fair. Thanks for explaining. I'm on the opposite side of that, but I can see where you're coming from. I could see my daughter or some other young girl benefitting from this type of instruction so I wouldn't hesitate to volunteer with them again. I also see no shortage of opportunities for my son to learn about coding, so I don't think it's a detriment to him. I'd much rather send them to the same place, but if it's 95% male, then I can understand why a girl would rather have a different environment to start out in.
    • EdHominem 10y ago
      Why are you going to tell your hypothetical daughter that it's fine for her to have gender-segregated events and tell your son that it's a bad thing for him to do so? (Because presumably you don't support men (or whites, etc) only clubs...) And how do you do it without saying to your daughter that it's because she's weaker than your son and needs help? How do you explain to your son that he's so privileged that he needs handicaps to avoid hurting others? (Especially if he's not actually some alpha-male stereotype who embodies that.) I see so much potential for accidentally hurting people with this path that I'd rather jump through a bunch of hurdles to make all events inclusive rather than reverse the original discrimination.
      • kohanz 10y ago
        First, I assure you my daughter is very real and ceased to be a hypothetical about a year ago ;) As I said earlier, I don't think gender-segregated events should exist in a balanced world, but I don't have a problem with them when there is a great imbalance and they have the potential to tilt that balance back towards equality (by existing temporarily). The whole idea of them is to create an environment welcoming to girls and get them interested in coding. I don't particularly care whether they do this by promoting only to one gender or explicitly allowing only one gender; that's logistics. I care that if we can provide more girls and women with an accessible pathway into software, that's a good thing, because once CS classes are and industry are more gender-balanced, we won't need these types of camps. Calling it "weakness" to gravitate towards something that other members of your gender are doing is misplaced, in my opinion. My computer engineering classes were roughly 95% male and I'm not so naive to think that those were exactly welcoming enviornments for women. To deny these pathways is to claim that the status quo is fine and that this inequality is either meant to be or will somehow solve itself. I don't believe either of those things. I don't really understand what "handicaps" the existence of an all-girl coding camp represents to men or boys. There are a plethora of options for us/them. Who is getting really, genuinely hurt by this, in your opinion?
        • EdHominem 10y ago
          > I assure you my daughter is very real and ceased to be a hypothetical about a year ago Heh. "Hypothetical child or children of unspecified gender". > Calling it "weakness" to gravitate towards something that other members of your gender are doing is misplaced There's a difference between doing something and discovering that most of the people doing it are your gender, and doing something that a higher-power (the event organizers) made gender-segregated. And I don't mean there's a weakness in the person choosing the activity, I mean there's an apparent one you the parent are compensating for. Like if the event in question was basketball camps and you put your child in "Basketball for Short & Slow People". All the female-only events have a real taint of keeping out the strong performers so the weak can win too. imho it changes things from a primarily female-centric event which happens to cover programming to a people-centric event which forbids the "obviously" superior boys. What better way to make people feel second-class? > I'm not so naive to think that those were exactly welcoming enviornments for women. Agreed. But that seems like the problem to solve, by making sure that the events we organize aren't hostile to anyone. But anyone is far wider than women, and the offenders are far more diverse than men. > I don't really understand what "handicaps" the existence of an all-girl coding camp represents to men or boys. Not that there is a handicap, but that your son would feel like he's being given one so that he's on equal footing - just because he's male. > Who is getting really, genuinely hurt by this, in your opinion? Everyone. Both children, and all of society. Your daughter would feel less sense of accomplishment, your son would feel that his success is less important to you than hers or that he's already good so why strive. Children of either gender who don't learn in the stereotypical way the group leaders think they should and are thus less-served by the program. Trans kids would suffer from more physical-gender stereotyping and all these gender-specific camps would just prolong gender segregation for everyone. It's not an either-or question though. I don't think you should ignore traditional sexism, which I agree is huge pretty much everywhere including many classrooms. But I think we should do more-inclusive things, not less, to combat it. Things that help everyone, not that exclude. There's a real reason to have mentors who look like you, in whatever ways you see yourself, but not I think, to be separated from those who are different.