5 ms·

I'm sorry but that's a pretty weak argument. So does that mean that any company with patents should just suck it up if someone infringes instead of defending th

I'm sorry but that's a pretty weak argument. So does that mean that any company with patents should just suck it up if someone infringes instead of defending their IP? Regardless of what you think of the validity of patent, it was granted and MS has a right to defend it. If you put in time doing research and then spend time and money patenting that research because you believe it to be innovative (subjective), would you just suck it up and "try to make your own software better" if someone copied your work?

flatline 16y ago
Among all the companies out there that are arguably violating these patents, they choose to go after a high profile, successful, primarily online company who has been in business using these technologies for years. This is highly selective and to me indicates that the GP's point probably has some validity. Can anyone really argue that Salesforce of all companies has somehow infringed on Microsoft's IP? If they had been enforcing these patents earlier on and enforcing them uniformly, it would have seemed much less of a patent-troll style maneuver.
- smallblacksun 16y ago
  If they had instead gone after lots of small companies, you would be complaining that they were abusing the little guy who couldn't defend himself. This is not patent trolling because Microsoft actually uses these patents in their software.
daveungerer 16y ago
Defending your IP is not the same thing as using patents as a weapon to go after a specific company that you see as a strategic threat.
- eagleal 16y ago
  Well, Salesforce should have done their homework, the first thing you have to do (when you start to get pretty big) is check if you infringe any patents.
  - bsaunder 16y ago
    I don't believe there exists a technology company in the world that doesn't infringe on patents (mostly unintentionally). I think if most of them really looked they'd find thousands patents they are infringing.
    - eagleal 16y ago
      I know. My current project goes near 4 claims on 5 patents, till now (I don't make infringement, but still have found myself near some mines). However my point is that you can't blame MS for this, but the patent law. Either change it, use it, or remove it. You have 3 options. Most users here are saying that "ethically" MS is doing wrong. This is not an ethical issue, it's a legal one (MS isn't the only one, recently Apple, Nokia, etc). The problem of patents it's been around for decades, or at least years, why haven't anyone fixed it. America is a democracy, right? Now go and change the law, if you can. Or, wait for a replacement of the current patent system, I think it's only a matter of years, now. EDIT: Of the 5 patents I was talking about, none of them use the invention on an actual product. EDIT2: clarified 2nd par.
      - daveungerer 16y ago
        Now you're starting to make some sense. I guess you can't trust a large company to behave ethically, only to stay within the law. The problem is, the system is set up in such a way that it's impossible for a small company to stay legal. Even if you grew into a medium sized company, and you managed to spend the time required to research all the patents you're infringing on, the licensing costs for all those patents would be greater than all the money your company will make over its entire lifetime. Because you now know about all the patents, even the silly ones, and you can't actually afford to challenge all of them, so you just have to license them. That is what would happen if a small / medium company did its best to stay legal when it comes to patents. It's absurd.
  - daveungerer 16y ago
    And then? What do you propose is the next logical step once you have the list of patents you infringe on? Go to Microsoft and say "please sue us now"? Because if you were going to suggest that they re-develop in order to avoid infringing any patents, you're either from another planet or a troll.
kragen 16y ago
> So does that mean that any company with patents should just suck it up if someone infringes instead of defending their IP? Regardless of what you think of the validity of patent, it was granted and MS has a right to defend it. People should do what is moral, not act as selfishly as they can without overstepping the bounds of the law. Enforcing patents against software is immoral. As Bill Gates famously pointed out, if software had been considered patentable when Microsoft started, the industry would have been at a standstill decades ago. The fact that it's possibly legal does not make it moral. You can list any number of actions that are legal but immoral if you think about it for two minutes. > If you put in time doing research and then spend time and money patenting that research because you believe it to be innovative (subjective), would you just suck it up and "try to make your own software better" if someone copied your work? No copying is being alleged here. Presumably people who can see that enforcing patents against software is immoral would do exactly what you're saying, and furthermore would rarely spend time and money patenting in the first place.

flatline 16y ago

Among all the companies out there that are arguably violating these patents, they choose to go after a high profile, successful, primarily online company who has been in business using these technologies for years. This is highly selective and to me indicates that the GP's point probably has some validity. Can anyone really argue that Salesforce of all companies has somehow infringed on Microsoft's IP? If they had been enforcing these patents earlier on and enforcing them uniformly, it would have seemed much less of a patent-troll style maneuver.

smallblacksun 16y ago
If they had instead gone after lots of small companies, you would be complaining that they were abusing the little guy who couldn't defend himself. This is not patent trolling because Microsoft actually uses these patents in their software.

daveungerer 16y ago

Defending your IP is not the same thing as using patents as a weapon to go after a specific company that you see as a strategic threat.

eagleal 16y ago
Well, Salesforce should have done their homework, the first thing you have to do (when you start to get pretty big) is check if you infringe any patents.
- bsaunder 16y ago
  I don't believe there exists a technology company in the world that doesn't infringe on patents (mostly unintentionally). I think if most of them really looked they'd find thousands patents they are infringing.
  - eagleal 16y ago
    I know. My current project goes near 4 claims on 5 patents, till now (I don't make infringement, but still have found myself near some mines). However my point is that you can't blame MS for this, but the patent law. Either change it, use it, or remove it. You have 3 options. Most users here are saying that "ethically" MS is doing wrong. This is not an ethical issue, it's a legal one (MS isn't the only one, recently Apple, Nokia, etc). The problem of patents it's been around for decades, or at least years, why haven't anyone fixed it. America is a democracy, right? Now go and change the law, if you can. Or, wait for a replacement of the current patent system, I think it's only a matter of years, now. EDIT: Of the 5 patents I was talking about, none of them use the invention on an actual product. EDIT2: clarified 2nd par.
    - daveungerer 16y ago
      Now you're starting to make some sense. I guess you can't trust a large company to behave ethically, only to stay within the law. The problem is, the system is set up in such a way that it's impossible for a small company to stay legal. Even if you grew into a medium sized company, and you managed to spend the time required to research all the patents you're infringing on, the licensing costs for all those patents would be greater than all the money your company will make over its entire lifetime. Because you now know about all the patents, even the silly ones, and you can't actually afford to challenge all of them, so you just have to license them. That is what would happen if a small / medium company did its best to stay legal when it comes to patents. It's absurd.
- daveungerer 16y ago
  And then? What do you propose is the next logical step once you have the list of patents you infringe on? Go to Microsoft and say "please sue us now"? Because if you were going to suggest that they re-develop in order to avoid infringing any patents, you're either from another planet or a troll.

kragen 16y ago

> So does that mean that any company with patents should just suck it up if someone infringes instead of defending their IP? Regardless of what you think of the validity of patent, it was granted and MS has a right to defend it. People should do what is moral, not act as selfishly as they can without overstepping the bounds of the law. Enforcing patents against software is immoral. As Bill Gates famously pointed out, if software had been considered patentable when Microsoft started, the industry would have been at a standstill decades ago. The fact that it's possibly legal does not make it moral. You can list any number of actions that are legal but immoral if you think about it for two minutes. > If you put in time doing research and then spend time and money patenting that research because you believe it to be innovative (subjective), would you just suck it up and "try to make your own software better" if someone copied your work? No copying is being alleged here. Presumably people who can see that enforcing patents against software is immoral would do exactly what you're saying, and furthermore would rarely spend time and money patenting in the first place.