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Sexism[0] isn't the right word here, since it implies the belief that the victims are less able, which women are clearly not. I won't assume you hold that belie

Sexism[0] isn't the right word here, since it implies the belief that the victims are less able, which women are clearly not. I won't assume you hold that belief. Discrimination[1] is more neutral and is the better word to describe this situation. I do occasional technical talks or workshops for free and some organisers have asked to make them 'girls only'. I've always declined and made it clear that everyone will be welcome. I don't see any malice in people who want to do gender-specific events, but I do not agree that excluding people is the way to go. I say good luck to you if you are doing 'girls only' events. You are welcome to come to mine too, even though as a man I may not be welcome at yours. [0]http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sexism http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sexism [1]http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/discrimination http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/discrimin...

kohanz 10y ago
I presume that you also refuse to do talks or workshops where all the speakers, panelists or mentors are of one gender or race? If so, good on you. Look, you sound like a nice guy, so I don't mean this as a personal attack, but your take on this is a classic example of how good people can fall into the trap of their own privilege. You don't do events where men/boys are not allowed to attend (e.g. girls who code) and that sounds noble and ideal. However, it somewhat ignores the fact that the reason these events have come into existence is that our profession has for decades suffered from massive amounts of systemic discrimination (sexism in particular). Just because it's not encoded in a written set of rules, doesn't mean it hasn't always been present. For men/boys, there are infinitely more events to attend where the gender balance will always be swung widely in their favor. When a woman developer joins/joined an all-male development team, do you think they have the luxury of being able to say "No, I won't do that"? Sure, there's no rule saying the team should be only male, but that's the "systemic" part. This is the "privilege" I'm referring to. You can say "no", because there are plenty of other talks and workshops for you to take part in. There is little to no negative impact on you from refusing those invites. What if women-only workshops were the predominant event out there? I don't think events like Girls Who Code are the final solution. I agree with you that, in the end, an industry and events open to everyone is the solution. However, we've reached such a massive imbalance by operating via the status quo that I think things like Girls Who Code, despite being "discriminatory" by a textbook definition, have a net positive effect, rather than the opposite. I'll happily volunteer my time to teach more girls to again when I have the chance. I don't think the lip-service of saying our industry and events are open to both men and women will tip the scales towards equality.
- hueving 10y ago
  False equivalence in your examples. The gp didn't say he would refuse to go to events that happened to be all girls. He would refuse to present at events that prevented male attendees. The massive difference is being explicitly prevented from joining based on sex, which makes your privilege rant pointless.
  - kohanz 10y ago
    No, you just missed the point. You're exactly describing the difference between explicit and systemic discrimination. I will agree that they are "massively" different, because the systemic version has had an effect that is orders of magnitude greater than the explicit/exclusionary Girls-who-code type of camp. There are no explicitly sexist rules encoded in software professions, so why are those professions predominantly occupied by men? Please don't tell me this is because you believe that men are superior at this kind of work.
    - hueving 10y ago
      >so why are those professions predominantly occupied by men Same tired old crap. The profession is predominantly occupied by men because that's the ratio of males/females in graduating classes. You can have all of the male-hating programming clubs you want, but trying to solve some perceived systematic discrimination of an entire profession that reflects the student supply is ignorant sexism. I applaud anyone who has the integrity to stand up against discriminatory groups like this, particularly when the mainstream discrimination is supported by a lot of people such as yourself.
      - kohanz 10y ago
        If you think girl coding camps are about "male hating", then I think you've shown your true colours. You think I'm supporting discrimination and I think you're feeling threatened and aggressively defending your privilege. We'll just have to disagree because we're too far apart. All the best.
- 10y ago

kohanz 10y ago

I presume that you also refuse to do talks or workshops where all the speakers, panelists or mentors are of one gender or race? If so, good on you. Look, you sound like a nice guy, so I don't mean this as a personal attack, but your take on this is a classic example of how good people can fall into the trap of their own privilege. You don't do events where men/boys are not allowed to attend (e.g. girls who code) and that sounds noble and ideal. However, it somewhat ignores the fact that the reason these events have come into existence is that our profession has for decades suffered from massive amounts of systemic discrimination (sexism in particular). Just because it's not encoded in a written set of rules, doesn't mean it hasn't always been present. For men/boys, there are infinitely more events to attend where the gender balance will always be swung widely in their favor. When a woman developer joins/joined an all-male development team, do you think they have the luxury of being able to say "No, I won't do that"? Sure, there's no rule saying the team should be only male, but that's the "systemic" part. This is the "privilege" I'm referring to. You can say "no", because there are plenty of other talks and workshops for you to take part in. There is little to no negative impact on you from refusing those invites. What if women-only workshops were the predominant event out there? I don't think events like Girls Who Code are the final solution. I agree with you that, in the end, an industry and events open to everyone is the solution. However, we've reached such a massive imbalance by operating via the status quo that I think things like Girls Who Code, despite being "discriminatory" by a textbook definition, have a net positive effect, rather than the opposite. I'll happily volunteer my time to teach more girls to again when I have the chance. I don't think the lip-service of saying our industry and events are open to both men and women will tip the scales towards equality.

hueving 10y ago
False equivalence in your examples. The gp didn't say he would refuse to go to events that happened to be all girls. He would refuse to present at events that prevented male attendees. The massive difference is being explicitly prevented from joining based on sex, which makes your privilege rant pointless.
- kohanz 10y ago
  No, you just missed the point. You're exactly describing the difference between explicit and systemic discrimination. I will agree that they are "massively" different, because the systemic version has had an effect that is orders of magnitude greater than the explicit/exclusionary Girls-who-code type of camp. There are no explicitly sexist rules encoded in software professions, so why are those professions predominantly occupied by men? Please don't tell me this is because you believe that men are superior at this kind of work.
  - hueving 10y ago
    >so why are those professions predominantly occupied by men Same tired old crap. The profession is predominantly occupied by men because that's the ratio of males/females in graduating classes. You can have all of the male-hating programming clubs you want, but trying to solve some perceived systematic discrimination of an entire profession that reflects the student supply is ignorant sexism. I applaud anyone who has the integrity to stand up against discriminatory groups like this, particularly when the mainstream discrimination is supported by a lot of people such as yourself.
    - kohanz 10y ago
      If you think girl coding camps are about "male hating", then I think you've shown your true colours. You think I'm supporting discrimination and I think you're feeling threatened and aggressively defending your privilege. We'll just have to disagree because we're too far apart. All the best.
10y ago