29 ms·

H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

• ZoF 10y ago
  Blatantly political. >Given that the unemployment rate for college graduates sits at 2.5%, it is fair to say that most native workers displaced by H-1Bs land on their feet. Yes, the only native workers displaced by h-1b's are college graduates. Utterly delusional; as usual, a complete lack of empathy for the uneducated and poor in the US.
• aaron-lebo 10y ago
  Have there been attempts at pumping H1B money and similar efforts into schools? I've always wondered if we want minorities to code and we are worried about job loss in the US, why not stop dumping money into hiring foreigners and instead dump it into CS programs at community colleges? It would take some time before you could build up a domestic work force as talented as foreigners, but would it not solve several issues? Or is it just not practical for other reasons?
  • Swizec 10y ago
    In Slovenia an engineer with 10 years of experience makes $24,000/year. In Silicon Valley an engineer with 0.5 years of experience makes $100,000/year. Gee, I wonder why businesses want to employ foreigners and why foreigners want to work for US companies. Hmmmmm
    • ganeshkrishnan 10y ago
      Exactly. Running a business is nightmare. Sometimes I wished I was in the 9-5 daily grind. Top that with asking to pay more than market rates and most startups would collapse. 44% of unicorn startups in Silicon Valley employ H1b or were started by them. And a lot of them Iran too(which was strangely banned by Trump)
      • 79d697i6fdif 10y ago
        The Iran thing is too bad. Besides our governments not getting along, it's possibly the most advanced, moderate, and educated Muslim majority country in the middle east. Maybe second to Turkey, but Iran seems to have a lot more engineers. I've known a few Iranian engineers and both of them were excellent. They didn't talk about politics either, the ones that come over here at least obviously don't have anything against the US.
        • happy-go-lucky 10y ago
          I'm under the impression that people coming for work or business wouldn't have anything against the US.
        • guitarbill 10y ago
          Honestly, both Khomeini and Ahmadinejad did quite well in convincing many countries that Iran isn't so "moderate". And violating the Vienna Convention/embassy extraterritoriality is rarely good for diplomatic relations. There were also U.N. sanctions in place until roughly a year ago. So downplaying it as "not getting along" is a bit of an understatement. But I'm also hopeful relations will improve in the future.
      • ascendingPig 10y ago
        How big were these unicorns before they started employing h1bs? I wouldn't count this visa as a big win for startups, because most startups can't afford to enter the lottery, even if they're going to be profitable in the future.
      • sheepmullet 10y ago
        > 44% of unicorn startups in Silicon Valley employ H1b or were started by them. And a lot of bright and hardworking people are losing out on visas so that large chop shops can make better profits
      • HeroOfAges 10y ago
        Are you referring to unicorn startups funded with venture capital money? Most of those companies don't have to worry about being profitable in the near short term (<2 years). Snap Inc. raised $2.5 billion dollars or so and has around 300 employees. I'm having a hard time believing a company that raised over $2 billion dollars, has 300 employees and doesn't have to worry about turning a profit will run out of business if they paid their software developers market rates.
    • ardy123 10y ago
      If you were to replace the higher paid positions with lower paid outsourced positions the allure of Silicon Valley would be lost entirely to me. The talent would simply move elsewhere. I don't understand why you're favouring a race to the bottom in terms of salary in terms of benefits to a business. It makes our talent go elsewhere.
      • Swizec 10y ago
        I'm not favoring a race to the bottom but I understand the allure of getting better talent for cheaper. And the allure of getting pay more than you currently are getting. Sure cost of living in SV is higher, but saving 5% of 100k is a lot more $$$ than 15% of 24k. And you're exposes to better opportunities.
        • ardy123 10y ago
          That's the thing though, the h1b aren't getting 5% of 100k, they're getting 5% of 60k and bringing down the demand for locals. Unless these people are worth the money, then businesses should be expected to pay the money. So in short if they plan to raise number of h1b visas, the salary minimum should be significantly and from my understanding it already has.
      • witty_username 10y ago
        What is wrong with a race to the bottom? Less salary means more profit for businesses and/or cheaper products
        • GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
          I sell my labor in exchange for money, and so it's in my interest for wages to be as high as possible, if not higher.
          • witty_username 10y ago
            Sure, it's in your interest for your wages to be as high as possible, but does this maximize overall welfare? By banning competition, the H-1B person's wage and the employer's profits go down and the product price increases. How much depends on the relative elasticities. Isn't this richer people banning much poorer people (immigrants) from competing with them?
    • mootothemax 10y ago
      >In Slovenia an engineer with 10 years of experience makes $24,000/year. >In Silicon Valley an engineer with 0.5 years of experience makes $100,000/year. Come on, you've got to compare like with like. In Montana, the median is ~$60,000, and in Georgia ~$80,000. [0] and [1] Here in Poland, I can find decent enough programmers who'll accept $2k/month salary. Their English will be poor, and typically they'll be based in the middle of nowhere. If I want to hire someone good in the capital city, Warsaw, I'll need to look at paying a minimum of $4-$5,000/month -> ~$50 - ~$60,000/year. (I've no idea what it costs to live in Montana; I'd hazard a guess that combined with a (freelancer's) 19% flat tax rate + $300/mo social security, your savings will grow faster here than there) One other area of confusion can be salaries quoted before and after tax. I know it's common to use after tax figures in Poland, and I'm not sure if your $24k is after tax; the figures you read about jobs in the US are definitely before tax. [0] https://www.sokanu.com/careers/computer-programmer/salary/Montana/ https://www.sokanu.com/careers/computer-programmer/salary/Mo... [1] https://www.sokanu.com/careers/computer-programmer/salary/Georgia/ https://www.sokanu.com/careers/computer-programmer/salary/Ge...
      • Swizec 10y ago
        Looked it up yesterday. Average engineer salary in capital of Slovenia is 2000/month. Caveat is that everybody who's good is a self emplpyed freelancer working for US companies. So statistics don't capture them. I'd wager the average for those is around 5000/month. Freelancer flat rate tax in slovenia is 4% if you make under 100k. That part is nice but makes all my friends unambitious. Always found that part unfortunate.
        • mootothemax 10y ago
          > Looked it up yesterday. Average engineer salary in capital of Slovenia is 2000/month. Yeah, and it's difficult to know who reports stuff accurately, whether that takes into account people living in backwaters vs. fancy offices in Ljubljana etc. etc. etc. For what it's worth, some Slovenians seem to be reporting healthy salaries here, although as you say, there's a good number of self employed there (and workers in Ljubljana definitely affect the average... or the other way around, you know what I mean): http://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/slovenia http://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/slovenia
    • expertentipp 10y ago
      The IT salaries in post-Communist EU countries is like getting spat in the face.
      • distances 10y ago
        Surely applies to all salaries in the countries, though?
        • expertentipp 10y ago
          For remaining salaries it's even more humiliating.
    • heeen 10y ago
      H1B applicants have to be paid prevailing wage, I wonder where the notion of cheap h1b workers comes from.
      • manarth 10y ago
        H1B applicants have to be paid prevailing wage In theory, yes. In practice, research has shown otherwise: http://www.workpermit.com/news/research-finds-us-h1b-visa-holders-paid-less-20051026 http://www.workpermit.com/news/research-finds-us-h1b-visa-ho...
        • heeen 10y ago
          Interesting. That does not reflect what I have seen at my company.
      • briandear 10y ago
        "We can find an American for this job!" What salary are you offering? "$60k, that's the prevailing wage." Then there must be a shortage, here's your H1. If that "prevailing wage" were $100k, there wouldn't be a shortage.
      • cmdrfred 10y ago
        Prevailing wages for the job title they are hired for. What they do is classify them as "junior programmer" and have them replace a senior programmer.
  • ganeshkrishnan 10y ago
    It's not the business responsibility to train Americans/Europeans/Indians. A business has to respond to it's shareholders who don't ask the question "How many of our nationality/religion/race have you employed" but "What's the share price" It's the government's responsibility to train people and H1b failure is government's responsibility. Most companies dont even pay tax, do you really expect them to hire ONLY Americans? Why would they when they can hire/outsource their work for half the cost. Most big business have at least half their profits from outside the US. I remember IBM Global surpassing US profits when I used to work for IBM. Cracking down on H1b is a bandaid over brain cancer. Fix the rot in education system, make education free, invest in tech else the big Businesses have no obligation to stay in US and pay more to do the same job (H1b or locals)
    • godzillabrennus 10y ago
      Businesses used to hire and train. There was once loyalty within corporate America. That is dead.
      • ganeshkrishnan 10y ago
        >Businesses used to hire and train. There was once loyalty within corporate America. That is dead. I cannot debate this. However given our current situation and seeing our progress the rightful way would be for the government to invest more into education. Saudades is not going to help us. Being more pragmatic and planning accordingly will be much more beneficial
        • cmdrfred 10y ago
          >invest more into education I suggest the opposite. The reason college tuition is so high is because the government backs those loans. Remove the government backing of loans thus lessening the availability of capitol to the educational system and I think you will find it will become vastly more affordable.
          • thewhitetulip 10y ago
  • barrkel 10y ago
    Jobs aren't a zero-sum game. There's no fixed quantity of jobs that are being taken by immigrants and could be filled by American students appropriately trained. An industry grows when it has supply and demand. There's nearly infinite demand for IT, the way I see it - everything is turning into information. The primary supply for IT is people. Immigration will increase the size of the industry and increase the number of places available for American students as well.
    • ismail-khan 10y ago
      Another way to look at it: if restrictions on high skill tech immigration tighten, then tech companies that would have been founded in America will instead be founded elsewhere. This is more true of software than of any other industry, because software is built mostly with human capital which can cross borders fairly easily.
      • pg314 10y ago
        I agree with your conclusion (that tech companies will move), but don't agree with your reasoning. It is exactly the opposite. Capital crosses borders much more easily than human capital. There are all kinds of impediments for human capital moving (visas, lack of money for travel, ties to families and friends). That is why, if it becomes even harder (because of travel restrictions), that tech companies will move.
        • ismail-khan 10y ago
          Upon further reflection, I think it's not so much about human vs physical capital (and I agree with your point), but about IT workers vs other types of workers. If a company of 5 Indian software engineers is booted out of the US, they can get together anywhere else in the world and still develop a product to the same standard. By contrast, other workers have "stickier" skills that tie you to a specific country. An Indian aerospace engineer may find it hard to find work in India, for example.
  • Arnt 10y ago
    That money belongs to businesses. Pumping it into schools is called a "tax raise". Have there been attempts? I'm sure.
  • pweissbrod 10y ago
    Why would i as an employer who needs help right now place my budget into onshore folks who will be beneficial 10 years from now?
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• planetjones 10y ago
  Is this disagreeing with Blake Irvine. See https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2017/02/09/godaddy-immigration-h-1b-visa/%3Fsource%3Ddam?client=safari https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2017/02... This is the man who refers to H1B visas as genius visas. I have worked with many Indian outsourcing companies and while talented people do exist, calling their employees genius is wholly inaccurate (as would be calling most software devs in the Western world genius). I did laugh when I read irving's original post on LinkedIn and some former employer of GoDaddy expressed just how Mr Irving was using his H1B allocation I.e. to get the same job done for less dollar...
  • kls 10y ago
    The problem is the incentive system. I have never been known for my lack of directness and in given so, I used to work with an Indian developer who was very good at his job. So one day I just flat out asked him, I said Karthick why do a good portion of Indian developers suck, his response floored me. Without missing a beat he responded, look it's a misaligned incentive system. When I go back to India the first question I am asked is how many people do you manage. If I go on a date, it's the first words out of a fathers mouth. He went on to tell me that you see Indian has remains of the cast system still culturally in place and this stems from that way of thinking, but it has morphed into changing your cast by moving up the corporate ladder. The fastest way to managing people is IT given it's over representation in the Indian economy. So what you have is a bunch of would be MBA's getting tech degrees so they can do their time and make it to management. They have no passion for technology and look at it as doing their residency for management. Then he looked at me and said, with a laugh. Put Simply they go into IT to get laid. Whereas I went into IT to become and American, because and Indian guy with citizenship is John Don (he meant Don Juan).
    • unityByFreedom 10y ago
      That's a fascinating perspective. Thanks for sharing!
    • aviraldg 10y ago
      As a current CS student from India, I can completely back this theory. Most in my class are very sure they want to pursue a career in Computer Science, but have little to say if you ask them why. A good fraction of them, every year, end up joining consultancy firms in nontechnical roles, or (what I hate more) in HR - and are perfectly fine with it. Computers in India are not associated with the amazing feeling most of us had the first time we wrote a program that worked correctly. They are associated with a guaranteed (heh) paycheck and a comfortable life, and the quality of the work produced in this fashion is a natural result of that attitude. The outsourcing industry is at the centre of this idea, but it also supports a large number of degree mills and certificate farms producing a mind boggling number of absolutely useless "computer engineers" giving all of us the reputation we do. I, for one, would love to see companies like TCS and Infosys gone.
• rodionos 10y ago
  Number of H-1B visas issued for Indian citizens, 1997-2015: https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/1bc51064 https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/1bc51064 Top H-1B countries: https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/04040e14 https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/04040e14
  • guitarbill 10y ago
    That's really useful data. As always with statistics, I've thought about what factors could influence the data. One is population, so the obvious thing would be to weight the number of visas issued (which should be proportional to the number of visas applied for if it's a lottery) with the population of that country, specifically the number of people with bachelor degrees or higher. But even with weights controlling for educated population, from rough calculations I've done, H1-B visas seem to be issued disproportionally often to Indian nationals. If it were somehow possible to see the average H1-B wage per nationality, that would also be very interesting. But neither would answer why that's the case, a simple (and probably wrong explanation) could be that Europeans are simply less likely to wait for H1-B visas given the benefits inherently provided in those countries. (Edit: What I mean is you still can't tell if this disproportionality is a good or bad thing, only that there is such a disproportionality.)
    • rodionos 10y ago
      That's a good point, obviously India and China have vastly larger populations and hence produce more STEM graduates than the other countries. If population and the number of graduates were the key factor, we would observe a similar trend across other visa types, in particular academic visas. This is not the case, it seems: https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/6042ea50/2/ https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/6042ea50/2/ - J-1 https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/6042ea50/3/ https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/6042ea50/3/ - F-1 J-1 is particularly interesting, where India is growing but lagging behind other countries.
  • raverbashing 10y ago
    Can't Mexicans get a TN visa?
• redsummer 10y ago
  You could make the Sanders and Trump people happy if there was free college and education for economically underprivileged Americans for STEM / Programming jobs. It doesn't seem likely given the political divide.
• koolba 10y ago
  What's the argument against using an auction for H1-B visas rather than a lottery? That'd maximize the tax collected from their salaries and ensure the salaries are on par with the going rate for said workers. Arguably it's in the interests of everyone besides companies trying to get cheaper labor via H1-B visas. The only counterpoint I've ever heard is "It's not fair for company XYZ in low cost of living Podunk, USA because we can't compete at those high salaries against banks / SV / expensive cities". So what? I doubt they can compete against the ability of TCS or Infosys to game the system and get the lions share of the visas either.
  • adekok 10y ago
    something something democracy. The country is run (roughly) on something resembling democracy and equality. If, instead, the ethos changes to "more power to people who pay more", we give up any pretence at democracy. We might as well just advertise that politicians are for sale. Which the mostly are right now, but at least they have to pay lip service to the people. Once that's gone, the culture of the country will change enormously. And not for the better. See William Shirer's "Collapse of the Third Republic" for what happens to countries in this situation. It's less well known than "The rise and fall of the third reich", but I found it a lot more informative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Collapse_of_the_Third_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Collapse_of_the_Third_Repu...
    • koolba 10y ago
      > something something democracy. > The country is run (roughly) on something resembling democracy and equality. If, instead, the ethos changes to "more power to people who pay more", we give up any pretence at democracy. We might as well just advertise that politicians are for sale. What's not democratic about optimizing need based upon projected tax revenue? Are we discriminating against "poor companies"? Would you classify companies that allow their employees to work remotely doing the same? (ex: I'm sure Google can pay more for a remote employee than any local company in Podunk USA). I personally have no horse in the H1-B race. I don't employ any nor do I intend to apply for visas. The vast majority of citizens and permanent residents in the USA are in that group as well. It's in their interests to raise the price of said foreign labor. I'd say that's very democratic and keeping the price of it artificially low is short changing democracy.
• nottorp 10y ago
  Isn't a H-1B a form of indentured servitude? As in, if you change jobs you lose your visa? If yes, you don't get the competent ones but the cheap ones who have no choice. The good ones work on their terms for whomever they please. Edit: combine that with kls's answer about incentives, and you see why this visa system isn't quite working.
  • blunte 10y ago
    The same applies for Americans working in Europe as highly skilled migrants. A company sponsors your visa, and when that job ends (like the company shuts down, for example), you must go find another company willing to sponsor you. Or if you're fortunate, as with Americans in Netherlands, you can start your own business easily and get a freelance visa. But the point is the same - you work at the place that sponsored you, or you risk having to go back home.
    • nottorp 10y ago
      Well, for some reason nobody's complaining about Western Europe immigrants taking US jobs...
      • virmundi 10y ago
        It appears to be a difference between immigrant (with permanency) vs transient skills. There was a time when society needed itinerant skilled workers. Now we have the infrastructure to train, en masse, our workers. While skipping the training step is nice, hence the permanent workers, H1-Bs appear to bring mostly unskilled, or low skilled workers into the country under the banner of master masons, so to speak.
        • blunte 10y ago
          H1-B, as championed by Microsoft and embraced by many large companies, was clearly used as a tool to replace market wage tech employees with low wage immigrants. Microsoft's arguments before Congress were fully debunked, and many of us who have worked for two decades in US IT have seen the reality. Plus, over the last 15 years as what we do with and demand from computing technology has expanded exponentially, the knowledge gap between management/hiring managers and IT workers has grown to the point where management often has no clue at all about how to spec a job or how to filter/evaluate a candidate. This has led us to the alphabet soup that is job specs - the "what did our last guy do before he quit? yeah put all that on the list of requirements" problem. So it's not just an H1-B problem; it's much bigger. But it probably results in a feeling of futility on the part of hiring managers, leading them to think, "well since we're basically guessing at this hiring thing, we might as well hire the cheapest we can get."
• winter_blue 10y ago
  This article is repeats the false idea that you cannot switch jobs to other companies. You can switch jobs to other companies that are willing to transfer your H-1B visa. Plenty of tech companies will happily do a visa transfer. Yet, this facetious lie is often repeated. It just goes to show how inaccurate and poorly-researched this article was.
  • dominotw 10y ago
    Sure but you lose your line in Perm queue, not to mention the H1B recertification process which is fraught with peril.
    • winter_blue 10y ago
      Are you sure about your I-140 priority date resetting if you change jobs? I've heard mixed opinions on this. Also, the policies on this might have changed due to the various new immigration regulations that came into effect on January 17, 2017: https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-final-rule-certain-employment-based-immigrant-and-nonimmigrant-visa-programs https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-fin...
      • mavelikara 10y ago
        The place in line stays intact, especially after the new rules came into play. Nevertheless, the process has to restarted - from PERM onwards - at the new job. PERM is a process which carries much uncertainty - your application could get selected for additional scrutiny randomly, in which case it can take more than a year. During this period the priority date can become current and then retrogress again for many years. Both these have happened multiple times in the past, so those possibilities are not academic.
        • winter_blue 10y ago
          > the process has to restarted - from PERM onwards - at the new job PERM (labor certification) has to be done all over again at the new job? That really sucks. I thought that if the new job was "substantially similar", you wouldn't need to go through PERM all over again at the new position. Are you sure about this? Also, is there some good reading material, for an H-1B visa holder, to understand how this whole thing works, the process, etc?
• l3m0ndr0p 10y ago
  Eliminate the H-1B, it has been abused far too long. This system has displaced & discouraged many local USA based people from getting a decent job with future growth potential. The lower cost labor is not any better, nor more talented than local homegrown talent. Far too many US based companies have abused this and it needs to stop.
• darkdreams 10y ago
  Slightly off topic. My understanding is that for every H-1B application that is filed the US government takes a ACWIA fee that is supposed to be used for improving competitiveness of the American worker and providing scholarships. From https://www.uscis.gov/forms/h-and-l-filing-fees-form-i-129-petition-nonimmigrant-worker https://www.uscis.gov/forms/h-and-l-filing-fees-form-i-129-p... "SEC. 414 Collection and use of H-1B nonimmigrant fees for scholarships for low-income math, engineering, and computer science students and job training of United States workers". I am curious whether they could quantify/prove/debunk the skills shortage theory using the scholarships that are given. Does anyone know about this?
  • throwaway251 10y ago
    Well - this is not off topic - this is exactly what the US government is not doing
  • Chico75 10y ago
    Planet Money did an episode on that quite recently: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/01/27/512060753/episode-750-retraining-day http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/01/27/512060753/episo...
• calvinbhai 10y ago
  Because citizens of countries other than india and china don't really need h1 visas to work in US. Many countries have treaty work visas (Canada / Mexico citizens can work on TB visa) And those who study in US, if their employer starts green card process they can get their EAD before OPT expires. Only Indians and Chinese have to rely on h1b.
  • raverbashing 10y ago
    > Only Indians and Chinese have to rely on h1b. Really?! You're excluding all of Europe, Russia, Australia/NZ, Latin America, Africa Yes, those people have developers, yes some of them are talented enough to want to apply for an H1B. But they have to stand in line because Tata needs another 1000 people to be exploited for cheap
    • jlangenauer 10y ago
      Australians can get an E-3 visa - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-3_visa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-3_visa But the rest of your point still holds.
    • raitom 10y ago
      Exactly! I'm french and it will be the second time this year that I apply for an H1B. Without Tata and Infosys I'd have it for a while now.
      • calvinbhai 10y ago
        Not sure if this is well known, but here's what you can do if you are not Indian or Chinese. Yes Mr. or Ms. French, you too. -Do a MS in CS or some STEM field from an accredited school. -Get a job with an employer willing to start green card process immediately (many will be willing since it means no uncertainity of H1b lottery) -Before your 3 yr OPT expires, you'll get your EAD (after doing PERM and I-140 on premium). -Saves your employer a lot of headache and $$$. You get ahead of the rat race EAD means no need to file for H1b. You are out of the rat race meant to keep Indians and Chinese out of USA. I dont know what non Indian / non Chinese are complaining about. H1b issue, the way it is projected in the American MSM, is purely to trash Indians and blame Indians for all the problems USA has. There are thousands of people getting EADs the way I have mentioned, but its all kosher for people who want to point fingers at Indians.
• hackerboos 10y ago
  Planet Money republished their podcast on immigration recently: Episode 436: If Economists Controlled The Borders http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/02/08/514152963/episode-436-if-economists-controlled-the-borders http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/02/08/514152963/episo...
• la6470 10y ago
  Why is Mr Trump not signing the executive order to increase the salary of H1B visa holders? He signs a few executive order everyday but something seems to holding him up from signing the one around H1B visa. Looks to me that these outsourcing firms and their customers in USA have a stronger lobby than expected.
• anjc 10y ago
  >Although it is true that foreign workers at the Indian consultancies receive more visas than higher-skilled workers at better-known firms, a simple solution exists. Congress could raise the number of visas issued. Given that the unemployment rate for college graduates sits at 2.5%, it is fair to say that most native workers displaced by H-1Bs land on their feet. Absolute scum. Native workers displaced by H1Bs is ok because the fired workers eventually find other work? Vile. A significant proportion of IT and STEM graduate are unable to get work in their chosen industry, and proceed to waste years of education by going into other areas out of necessity. I can't believe somebody could shit out the quoted text and have it published.
  • mberning 10y ago
    The idea that a US citizen could rack up tremendous debt on a 4 year STEM degree only to be passed over in favor of a cheaper H1B "indentured servant" that received a degree from a low cost diploma mill is vile indeed.
    • anjc 10y ago
      It isn't just the US too. It's the same all over Western Europe. What sticks in my craw even more is that, to legitimise the process of issuing more visas, companies and governments have to continually say "there aren't enough STEM and IT grads! Do STEM and IT everyone!" knowing full well that there wont be jobs for these kids at the end of it.
      • JoeAltmaier 10y ago
        Anecdata: I'm in US. Three boys, all graduated Engineers. All have jobs, easy as pie. One had $30/hr part-time remote work during last year of college. Have to move to get the right job maybe, or take what you can find, but for various reasons they're all very happy. My Niece is in a field that's chronically low on qualified Engineers - she designs and installs automation in factories. So many facets including mechanical, electrical, industrial, chemical, process, thermo, etc. You have to be an all-rounder to get the job. So they work her flat out every minute she can spare (lives in hotels in remote cities for weeks during installs). Other niece does lithium-battery development for startups in Silicon Valley. They keep going under, but no problem another one starts up the next week. Got all the work she can handle. Wife's niece does biomedical research, never been a day without work. Canada, East Coast US (Yale actually), then a regular job with Govt. Anyway, of the 13 siblings and their cousins, exactly 1 has ever had a day of trouble with employment. So all the talk about 'over-supply' might be exaggerated.
• loph 10y ago
  This one sentence says it all: "The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast, America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their workers a median salary of $117,000." None of those salaries listed are competitive with what a non-H1B (read citizen or permanent resident) would earn. Indeed.com quotes the average SD salary in Seattle (think Amazon and Microsoft) as 126,000 and San Francisco at 134,000. Companies sponsoring H1B need to be held to the letter of the law -- the salaries must be competitive. The demand for H1B visas would fall if the imported labor was paid fairly.
  • mberning 10y ago
    It is ridiculous that so many people support this wretched and miserable system. Anybody that has worked with these type of firms knows what is going on.
  • perseusprime11 10y ago
    I agree. There are only two factors that contribute to this problem- 1) Hiring at low wages to help the bottom line of a company and 2) Hiring quickly because we need "bodies" to show progress against projects.
  • Panini_Jones 10y ago
    > None of those salaries listed are competitive with what a non-H1B (read citizen or permanent resident) would earn. As a new grad interviewing for software engineering positions at FB, Google, Etc., I make exactly the same amount as my U.S. peers who have also received offers. Moreover, how do you know that the SE level of the H1B hires is exactly that of the pool from which Indeed.com calculates their averages? What if the H1B program was taking in a huge amount of new grads right now and not as many senior positions? Then the H1B average would be different than the Indeed one. Moreover (again), as I make the same amount of money as a U.S new grad, my company would pay for Visa sponsorship, and even pays more to fly me in to interview. Not only that, they put me through more interviews, costing more engineers time.
• perseusprime11 10y ago
  This thing is the only thing that is keeping the salaries low. I can easily imagine a good software engineer getting paid at least 250-300K if we don't have H1-B visa system.
  • baby 10y ago
    On the other end I can only imagine the non-growth the US would have known if companies could not have got better educated foreigners for less $$$.
  • mildbow 10y ago
    But we have been getting paid those ~numbers! Software engineer salaries are starting to have a strong bimodal distribution. Charitably, your statement could very well be true for those American developers who live in the lower end of compensation. But, it's nonsensical when applied to those getting paid in the high range. Anyway, the long-term fix is not to shift the lower end up by ~10k (if that even happens) for everyone. The fix is for each individual developer to move to the higher range. ie. quit blaming immigration and get better.
  • umanwizard 10y ago
    I'm a good software engineer and I do make (approx.) $250k, at a company that hires lots of people on H1B visas.
• sergiotapia 10y ago
  So President Trump was right about this.
• mattfrommars 10y ago
  Well it takes The Economist to point of this fact which I've been telling about it for ages. None of them believed that it was Indian who are favored to get H1B compared to other nationality. Indian take so much pride with Indian worker in these large tech firms and other places instead of realizing the fact they are favored. Why not give other nationality a chance to see what is going on? I've seen it happen with firm like Microsoft with HR manager being Indian and favoring Indian internee and granting him job then Pakistani developer who was without a doubt better performer. Would love to see some H1B crackdown happening.
  • harigov 10y ago
    That is total nonsense. As an Indian, I can assure you that the bias is usually other way around. Of course, I have no data to prove. A more accurate way to look at why Indians are all over the place in technical companies is to go look at different engineering courses in American Universities. Indians/Chinese usually make up 50% or more of any grad class in most Universities.
• throwaway251 10y ago
  Looking at the discussion so far - probably going to get trolled/downvoted but here goes: From all of the above comments - people are trying to undo only the parts of globalization that they don't like (wage arbitrage is one of them - stop crying!). I truly wonder what would happen if the Indians (and the rest of the world) started treating Americans the same way the America treats them and starts to roll back the impacts of globalization: 1. Stop American businesses from getting favors under trade deals and especially with sales of military equipment 2. Ask each American to provide all their social media account information when entering the country or throw them out 3. Set quotas for American businesses to sell their products/services. 4. Force Google, etc to locate servers and data-centers in China/India directly and give the keys to local governments (if the US government can get access why should other governments not?) If a trade war did happen: Specific to India: Their economy is mostly non-export oriented (except the IT services part) - they will probably take longer to raise the quality of living for their population - but it will probably be a better path to take (a trade war would probably help grow domestic businesses faster) Specific to China: The USA needs access to the Chinese markets rather than the other way. Plus they can always dump all those treasury notes Perhaps a trade war (rather de-globalization) would be a good idea for the developing world - it would bring better balance to the world and undo globalization as a whole and not parts of it (which is exactly what USA voted for when they elected Trump). P.S. Please don't give a self-righteous BS response about USA being the land of the free and so on.. I think it's pretty obvious most immigrants are there for the money and quality of living (the kind of quality that comes with money and not society, safety, etc)
  • Helmet 10y ago
    You're severely underestimating the impact U.S. business has on other countries. A trade war with any of the countries you have listed would harm them much more than it would harm the US. China holds about 8-9% US debt. Their entire economic model is based on the devaluation of their currency so that the US and other countries purchase their products. If China dumps US debt, there is plenty of demand elsewhere. Look, I'm not some extreme pro-America nationalist - but you have to look at the facts and it is simply an indisputable reality that no other country in the world can compete with the US on economic grounds. You are overplaying your hand if you think that a trade war with the US would end favorably for any of those nations.
• itissid 10y ago
  As an H1B visa holder, I think the issue of abuse at its core has to do with two things(at least): 1. Too many tech firms require/opt for low cost workers to subsidize their payroll bill. If you raise H1B salaries, firms that have thin margins might automate and outsource. I think to scrap the lottery, and add the market based approach to H1Bs like in the House Bill that was proposed in Jan is a better alternative, it would force firms to be more productive and boost payroll more organically. 2. The program is underfunded, its entirely fees driven and the fees is clearly not enough to prevent abuse we keep hearing about so much. Remember top end silicon valley's don't really need to care about the salary issue as long as the reform does not dry the talent from coming to the US completely.
• forgotAgain 10y ago
  A constant theme for support of H-1B's is that they supply the US with an irreplaceable resource for starting new technical companies. Despite this I have not heard reference of any individual who came to this country on a H-1B visa to work for an Indian outsourcing company who later participated in a significant successful startup. Honest question, does anyone know an example of this having occurred?
  • iamgopal 10y ago
    It can not as there are ample start up opportunities for talented individuals in india.
  • virmundi 10y ago
    I don't think that it has to be a startup. What I'd like to hear from actually high skilled people with skills beyond that found in the US. I think that the H1-B program makes sense if a company need nuclear scientist, etc.
    • dalacv 10y ago
      The skill that they possess is the ability to work for 1/2 the pay.
  • throwaway100217 10y ago
    Several in my current circle and I followed that path. I came to the US earning $63K per year at an outsourcing firm. I am currently in a SaaS co with sales at $800K / year and 3 employees including me, growing and we will at least double our sales next year. Thanks to my work (and trying not to brag here), earlier start-ups I've worked at (building their marquee products, pre-fundraising) have raised several millions and employeed 10s - 100s of people.
• ausjke 10y ago
  This has been true for 15 years at least, which is one reason why Wipro/Infosys was getting most IT assignments for US market. When you look into how it worked it is amazing to realize the way the system was abused while no action was taken for decades.
• pinaceae 10y ago
  yes, and it's filling shit jobs that no American CS grad wants to do. who wants to do outsourced QA for Oracle? menial, mind numbing clicky work. who wants to maintain monster codebases built 20 years ago for some internal bullshit system at a Fortune 500? most of Software work by now is akin to facilities management. hence you give it to motivated foreigners, just like in farming, etc.
  • gaius 10y ago
    For a decent salary, lots of people. Do the 9-5 and spend the rest of the time on hobbies or with family. And why not?
    • pinaceae 10y ago
      simply not true. become a hiring manager and you'll see. you don't even get applications for those jobs by American CS grads or professionals - before any salary numbers are in play. we run analysis in our HR pipeline trackers - remove Asians and Eastern Europeans and its crickets. walk into Google, Facebook, Salesforce offices and see for yourself. i know this is super unpopular on HN were everyone is a superstar coder, but facts are fact. 90% of software work is undesirable and unfulfilling - and Westerners feel entitled to life-changing work. I just had a 26 year-old US coder quit because he does not want to come to work every day anymore, he now wants to travel Nepal and do something radical. Great for him - while a 1000 less-fortunate-by- birthplace people would give a leg for his job.
      • gaius 10y ago
        you don't even get applications for those jobs by American CS grads or professionals I just had a 26 year-old US coder I think you may be looking at this through a very narrow perspective of SF 20-something startup culture. But look at any other branch of engineering - civil, electrical, mechanical etc - and the backbone of those fields is 30- 40 and 50- somethings who work normal office hours.
• bischofs 10y ago
  Citing the low unemployment rate of STEM graduates to indicate that native workers have nothing to worry about is silly. Basic economics says that wages do not increase until full employment is reached. I may have a job but my wage would be higher if I wasn't competing with 100,000 H1-Bs
• omouse 10y ago
  BAM, there is no fucking tech labour shortage! They're just hiring outsourcing firms instead of training. Fucking knew it.
• Technophilis 10y ago
  The articles gives a good overview of the "H-1B situation". However, if you want to dig deeper here is some data I put together http://h1bpay.com/blog/2017/01/30/h-1b-visa-basics-application-numbers-and-salary-facts/ http://h1bpay.com/blog/2017/01/30/h-1b-visa-basics-applicati... Basically, only Microsoft is among the top 10 sponsors and not of the major sponsors is among the top 10 average salaries.
• nicholas73 10y ago
  I would go further and say that underpaid H1-B's are a straw man to the real mechanism that depresses American wages. Even if imported workers are paid exactly market, that still means market prices do not go up as there is no one to bid up salaries. That means people are not being compensated for delivery high value, or for developing skill in a difficult or rare area. There is a lot of hot air between the salary a person would accept versus the value they generate for a company. Having some unemployed people makes it so that the balance always tips towards the low end.
• caseysoftware 10y ago
  > That is not a good argument against them It's odd that the Economist has this sub-head but then goes on to make the case that Indian outsourcing companies are the biggest consumers and paying a fraction of what the others are paying.. so they are abusing the system. The rumor (proposal?) is that Trump is going to shift the minimum salary from $60k to $130k which makes it closer to software dev salaries in Seattle, SF, NYC which I think would address this.
• paulus_magnus2 10y ago
  (EU citizen point of view) I'd never consider a role in US that pays less than 150k (outside SV) $200k (SV/NY). H-1B is really bad because the holder has limited bargaining power vs US citizens hence he's forced to accept a lower salary when competing for jobs. There's also no clean way to allow talent to move around the world. A fair solution would be to agree on visa free movement of specialists earning above certain threshold ($100, $150k etc), even if it starts with a group of "most favourite nations".
  • throwaway100217 10y ago
    Once in the US, an H1-B auth holder can move at will to another company without informing the current employer. If the H1 transfer fails, it is a silent failure, Bargaining power is an illusion once the employee is in the US.
    • arachnids 10y ago
      Nonsense. The power of an alternative employment offer is the leverage its gives you against your current salary. As a green card holder, my employer has twice matched competing offers resulting in significant raises. If I was still on an H-1B, I would never have been able to negotiate that way because of the risk that they fire me and I get deported.
    • harigov 10y ago
      Yes and no. Most H1B's are stuck on that visa for a long time [more than 6 years] because they are waiting for their green card. Because green card is restricted by country, folks from India/China/Mexico have to wait much much longer to get a green card. If you change company when your green card is being processed, the whole process will have to restart. So most people just stick to their company and wait it out.
• throwaway100217 10y ago
  I am on an H1-B work authorization. The company applied for my position with a salary of ~$100K/yr (on the LCA and the H1 application) but they actually paid me ~$240K/yr. This year and the next, it will be well north of $300-$330K/yr. Why would they do this? Simple - to be able to pay me a prevailing wage and keep me in status in case the shit hits the fan. If they applied to the government saying they'd pay me $240K/yr, and for some reason they had to give me a pay cut, I'd be out of status or we would have to make a less-confident amendment to my H1 auth. A pay cut amendment should be viewed with skepticism in my opinion and I would avoid it. It's like underpromising and overdelivering. My actual salary will never be reported in an H1 database. But it will be on my tax returns. This isn't a common case but just something to keep in mind.
  • refurb 10y ago
    My actual salary will never be reported in an H1 database. The company has to report your actual salary. That's what in this database: http://h1bdata.info/ http://h1bdata.info/ It's not prevailing wage, it's actual base pay. I can remember at a previous employer that when you file for an H1-B, the company has to post the information in a public place. The form states the prevailing wage and the actual base salary.
    • throwaway100217 10y ago
      Well, one can pay out using bonuses, distributions and any number of other instruments. I didn't dispute that the job opportunity had to be posted prominently in the workplace with details exactly as stated in the H1 application. LCA re-applications / H1 amendments are not required unless the location, the position or the nature of the job change significantly. Pay cuts are simply not allowed without informing the government. Actual base pay >= prevailing wage? Perhaps my using them interchangeably isn't right. However, given a reasonable chance of approval, I would not apply for an H1 auth promising anything above the prevailing wage. My tax returns / pay stubs are included in H1 extensions, intermediate steps to a green card and in visa applications. They are well aware of the pay raises. IANAL and I can check with our lawyer again but this was our company's legal advice. If you are a lawyer or know one, this may be a difference of opinion.
• CodeSheikh 10y ago
  Why don't we just stop accepting visa applications from Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys for one year and see how it unfolds? It will resolve the ongoing debate -- at lease prove it one way or another. From a candidate's point of view, I am all in for finding new opportunities in a foreign prosperous land. But gaming the system is not great for the local US economy. Maybe having a new visa category with temp status and easy renewals every six-months. If those candidates are good enough, they can easily find regular H1-B jobs with regular American companies. Some foreigners spend a lot of money and go through severe hardships to get educated at American universities adhering to American socio-economic values. If they are good enough, they get hired by American companies with regular pays. I think it is unfair for them to get categorized under the same blanket rhetoric of "Abusing of H1-B visas".
  • usernametbd 10y ago
    > Why don't we just stop accepting visa applications from Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys It's not practical to do that. You can call them "Indian outsourcing firms", but on paper they are American companies too. Compiling such a black list of companies purely based on how many H-1B applications they've filed in the past is not a good idea. Because it'll just give unfair advantage to the other "outsourcing" companies like Tech Mahindra, who probably should have been on that list, but escaped the radar because of these other giants. So these companies will now top the list and they'll hire aggressively to replace TCS, Infosys and co. So what is the solution? Hard to say. Raising the minimum wage is a good start, but the exact amount will have to vary state by state. Because, for example, $80000 per year is too small for the bay area, but a good salary in Texas, NC etc. Another approach is provide an easier way to permanent residency for those who complete Masters or above in US. That will eliminate to some extent the mixing up the "Elon Musks and Sergey Brins" along with those abusing the system. And for God's sake, allow H-4 dependents to work. It's hypocritical to expect high skilled people to work in your country, but they shouldn't be married to someone who wants to work. You are destroying livelihoods, careers and relationships by doing this.
    • CodeSheikh 10y ago
      I agree with "an easier way to permanent residency for those who complete Masters or above in US." part. And yes for dependents to pursue jobs as well and get an equal opportunity at a better livelihood. But some sort of major change needs to happen to silence critics on both sides.
• geebee 10y ago
  The economist proposes getting rid of the rule that requires H1B workers remain within the company that sponsors them That sounds reasonable, but why then require that a company sponsor an immigrant in the first place? Why not let that immigrant choose where he or she will work? In fact, why not let the immigrant choose what to study, where to work, where to live, all in response to market signals? People have posted various lists for the average H1-B salary at what they consider top companies, like Google. $130k. Is that the salary in mountain view? You know, I actually think that salary is somewhat low for what a talented and well educated person can earn in the Bay Area. Why force these people to get hired as developers? Why make them study what google says they should study, take interview exams on second year data structures and algorithms the way google says they should? Why on earth should google get to have this power, over anyone? Let's just have immigration. All immigrants arrive in the US free, free to choose what they will study, where they will work, how they will go about it. They can sell real estate, install drywall, write python code, write novels, paint portraits, or whatever they wish to pursue. Nobody owes them success, but in the US, they should have the freedom to pursue happiness as they define it. Not as Facebook defines it. If working as a dev in an open office so big it has a horizon line for a CEO who says things like "young people are just smarter" for $152m a year doesn't sound as appealing as the flexibility and stability of working as a dental hygienist for $110 a year (roughly the median salary in SF), then that's the market's answer. I still maintain this - any immigrant system that allows corporations to decide who gets to come here is flawed. Allowing immigrants to quit once they're here would be an improvement, but it still allows corporations to decide who does and doesn't get to come here.
  • steevenwee 10y ago
    'I still maintain this - any immigrant system that allows corporations to decide who gets to come here is flawed.' Corporations ARE the workforce market, which should indicate what kind of workforce is needed. It can only go from employer to employee, not vice versa. You can also look at that from company's perspective: You not only paid for someone's visa but also went through all the paperwork and then the person leaves in a month, just because he got a bigger offer. This should somehow work in both directions.
• Consultant32452 10y ago
  I wonder how many people against H-1Bs are also opposed to Trump's worker protectionist policy re: NAFTA. Seems that at least philosophically they're aligned.
• harichinnan 10y ago
  Many of the people who are against H1B are missing the bigger picture. 1. H1B employers pay wages based on the numbers Department of Labor provides them. 2. Labor department contains a la carte of titles available for the same job to choose from. Employers generally chose a title with lower wages. Programming Analysts and Software Engineers do essentially the same job with upto 50K spread in wages. 3. The limit on H1B works against American Employers who usually pay much higher wages than the Indian consultancies. The American employers have to compete with a flood of applications from India. This forces big companies to subcontract Indian firms. 4. Companies in India randomly select employees to file for visas irrespective of whether they have actual business in US. Many H1B recipients don't actually come to US. Many wait in India for years before their companies arrange for a actual job in India. The lottery forces everyone to game the system. 5. US cannot actually deny Indian consultancies from operating in US. That would be denying market access to India. Indian companies does 60 Billion dollar worth of business in total. That's paltry compared to trade between US and India. US sells everything from Boeing to Starbucks and any restrictions on visas could invite trade war from India too. 6. People who oppose H1Bs actually dream of earning Wall Street salaries in Silicon Valley. That's a pipe dream unless you work in quant engineer jobs in Hedge funds and HFT. You can't build businesses that would pay the average worker 400K in Silicon Valley. 7. Restrictions on H1B would move American programming jobs to Asia much like the manufacturing jobs of rust belt. 8. The world is a much bigger place than America. An Indian worker taking a job doesn't necessarily mean a loss of opportunity for an American worker. It's not a zero sum game. H1B workers take up tech jobs. In most big companies, the ratio of tech to non tech jobs is atleast 1:6. Look at Amazon creating 100K non technical jobs in last few years. A few million technology workers in America make most of the high tech for the rest of the 7 billion human beings on the planet. Trade restrictions are not something you need. There could be a Chinese firewall in every country to protect local jobs and to rob Google and Facebooks of business opportunities. There would be more Baidu's, Youku's, Wechats and Alibabas in every country on the planet. 9. There's actually such a thing as skills shortage at every level. Even at the blue collar end, Many Americans cannot pass tests at 9'th grade level and are functionally illiterate. Tech jobs require a whole lot more skills that the coal miners in Michigan won't be able to take up. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/education/edlife/factory-workers-college-degree-apprenticeships.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/education/edlife/factory-... To summarize, if you are concerned about H1B lowering wages in your market, campaign for worker mobility and higher wages for H1B and the market would work it out. Americans are best at creating free market solutions to problems. H1B lottery system and the restrictions is a socialist solution that best works in restricted economies. Also campaign for a startup visas. Both for entrepreneurs and employees. The Frech Tech visa could be a model http://visa.lafrenchtech.com/ http://visa.lafrenchtech.com/ . This would help many of the people languishing in H1Bs to create more companies and more jobs here in US.
• throwo5 10y ago
  I used to work at American Express as full time H1B employee, Arizona location as an Engineer I (10 years exp). They paid me 80K while they paid 110K starting salary for fresh American graduates from Arizona State for Engineer III position. (Engineer I > Engineer III). Also they were promoted from Engineer III to Engineer I within an year, while I did all the hard work with no promotions or salary raise. H1B visa abuse at its best by an American Company. I am not in US anymore. Left it for good.
• almightykrish 10y ago
  Ex-TCS employee here: Seen this every year during my tenure at TCS. Every year in February / January project teams are requested by HR to send "list of eligible candidates" to apply for H1-B visa. The eligibility is weirdly composed, like they keep out graduates who have CS background and senior associates out of it. This is to ensure the associates stick longer with the company once they move to US. Finally the list comprises of 1000's of applicants for whom the Job Position is either falsely certified by Labour Department (LCA). (Dont understand why the Labour department never carries out an investigation).
• leovonl 10y ago
  Funny, you'd think non-immigration visas for USA would be much stricter than for Canada, but lately I've been realizing that's not the case at all. That's specially true for rules applying to the companies (like salary requirements).
• unsupak 10y ago
  Everyone knows that most H1-B visas are used up by Indian firms for Indian nationals. Not by American firms for international talent. All the politicians have known about this abuse for years but this part of US foreign policy and lobby group efforts. India is a considered a natural ally against China and the Muslims.
  • mavelikara 10y ago
    > Everyone knows that most H1-B visas are used up by Indian firms for Indian nationals. Not by American firms for international talent. Indians are "international". Or did you mean that only Europeans qualify?
• unsupak 10y ago
  Everyone knows that most H1-B visas are used up by Indian firms for Indian nationals. Not by American firms for international talent. All the politicians have known about this abuse for years but this part of US foreign policy and lobby group efforts. India is a considered a natural ally against China and the Muslims.
• 234dd57d2c8dba 10y ago
  This just confirms that H-1B visa is yet another piece of corporate welfare pushed through by lobbyists for the benefit of large corporations at the expense of small businesses and the middle class. My small software business can't compete with slave labor from India that large corporations with an army of lawyers can acquire. Just one of the many reasons that self-employment and small businesses are struggling against a tide of complicated regulations and legislation and immigration meant to crush the workers and small businesses. As you can see, self-employment has been on a steady downward trend since 1967: https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2010/09/art2full.pdf https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2010/09/art2full.pdf
  • comments_db 10y ago
    > ...slave labor from India... With that attitude, you don't deserve to work with the multi-cultural and multi-national diaspora of the software world.
  • beachwood23 10y ago
    That's a really interesting problem that I haven't thought as much about as I should. Do you know of any articles that cover the strangling of small businesses in more detail?
• comments_db 10y ago
  I can confirm my employer pays me at or above market rate. I am on H1B, but never been part of the outsourcing firms.
• nashashmi 10y ago
  I just want to put this out there: There are many fields outside of computer science and engineering where the average salary is not very high, and yet those fields have a desperate need of talent, not just because there is some niche thing only someone from outside can do, but also because the number of people going into the field are dangerously low.
• svbill 10y ago
  There is rampant corruption and greed in outsourcing contract firms. Resources are underpaid, often under multiple tiers of contract companies each getting their 30-50% cut. Occasionally the person showing up wasn't the interviewed person. Some contract companies are body shops, farming out H-3 (training VISA) persons who are effectively slaves since it's illegal to work under an H-3. The H-1B managers strategically build teams of H-1B people and exclude others to grow their presence until some companies (VMware, VISA, etc.) have diversely lopsided populations of contractors. Outsourcing needs to be outlawed, because companies looking for project resources simply don't care about external corruption.
• svbill 10y ago
  India has a culture of corruption, corruption is so embedded in the Indian way of life, India has frequent anti-corruption campaigns. There is rampant corruption and greed in outsourcing contract firms. Resources are underpaid, often under multiple tiers of contract companies each getting their 30-50% cut. Occasionally who shows up wasn't the one interviewed. Some contract companies are body shops, farming out H-3 (training VISA) persons who are effectively slaves since it's illegal to work under an H-3. The H-1B managers strategically build teams of H-1B people and exclude others to grow their presence until some companies (VMware, VISA, etc.) have diversely lopsided populations of contractors. Outsourcing needs to be outlawed, because it hurts companies, employees (training their replacement) and their families, victimized contract resource. Companies won't stop because they're looking to fill project resource slots, in many cases trivialize the need for quality and experience, and simply don't care about external corruption.