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After a crash Safari is nice enough to restore your open windows and tabs... I've noticed several times that it's also nice enough to re-open your private brows

by furyg3 10y ago

After a crash Safari is nice enough to restore your open windows and tabs... I've noticed several times that it's also nice enough to re-open your private browsing windows, too. That throws up some red flags for me.

M4v3R 10y ago
Well to be honest they don't say that the browser doesn't store your browsing data temporarily. As a matter of fact it has to do that in order to provide you with caching, cookies and local storage for your private browsing session. Normally this data gets wiped out when you close the window, but when the browser crashes it doesn't have chance to do so, so they restore the windows for you so you can make the decision whether to close them or not.
- devwastaken 10y ago
  > As a matter of fact it has to do that in order to provide you with caching, cookies and local storage for your private browsing session. This is solved by knowing what is stored is private browsing data, which should be marked anyways. Safari just isn't that well thought out of a browser.
  - 9935c101ab17a66 10y ago
    Bit of a sweeping statement tacked on at the end there.
  - madeofpalk 10y ago
    > Safari just isn't that well thought out of a browser Safari is just a browser that has made a different set of tradeoffs.
    - devwastaken 10y ago
      What tradeoff? Both chrome and Firefox treat private browsing data differently, and if they crash, will not be able to just restore it. Even if they did, its still bad design. The point of private browsing is to make it so when that window exits, that data doesn't exist anymore. You can still pull it up in new tabs in Firefox, but not if the window itself closes.
      - blowski 10y ago
        > The point of private browsing is to make it so when that window exits, that data doesn't exist anymore Who defined it that way? And how do you define 'exit', 'data' and 'exist'?
        devwastaken 10y ago
        What is reality anyway?
        aljones 10y ago
        Typically in macos, closing windows doesn't quit applications and quitting applications doesn't close windows.
      - kalleboo 10y ago
        I'm just speculating here, but since macOS/iOS have native APIs that automatically enable state restoration, Safari might be using those instead of reinventing the wheel for cross-platform compatibility like Chrome and Firefox need to. Leveraging native APIs means less code (fewer bugs), less disk usage, less RAM usage, etc.
      - k-mcgrady 10y ago
        >> Both chrome and Firefox treat private browsing data differently >> The point of private browsing is to make it so when that window exits, that data doesn't exist anymore. When defining what private browsing is supposed to do we should keep in mind Safari was the first major browser to introduce the feature.
        daxelrod 10y ago
        Sure, but it also didn't save/restore any window or tab state at that time. All those features came later, so this represents a change in how things act between Safari versions.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
abalone 10y ago
That's a MacOS thing, not just a Safari thing. Windows stay open until you close them, even across restarts. MacOS, like iOS, has mostly retired the concept of "quitting an app kills state". (You can go back to the old behavior via a system setting: "Close windows when quitting an app")
- Nullabillity 10y ago
  Storing stuff on disk that should be kept purely in-memory is a Mac thing?
  - kalleboo 10y ago
    Being able to pull the plug/battery on a computer and then having the restored state be exactly the same is a Mac thing, yeah.
    - yoz-y 10y ago
      In this particular case though it should not do so. Users do expect the private tabs to disappear after the window closes, no matter how it is closed.
      - Someone 10y ago
        I am not sure reopening private windows is a good idea, either, but Mac OS removed the rule "quitting an application closes its windows". Given that, it is logical that it reopens private windows, just as, for example, TextEdit or Numbers reopen windows with content you never explicitly saved (even across reboots)
    - dTal 10y ago
      >Being able to pull the ... battery on a computer... is a Mac thing Nope!
- saurik 10y ago
  This feature isn't some kind of evil magic... it isn't like it is serializing the virtual memory state of the entire process to disk in the style of unexec(): programs have to manually decide what they think matters for their suspension state; correspondingly, if this happens, Safari would have to be incorrectly saving information that the user clearly doesn't expect or want.
j_s 10y ago
As long as this functionality is documented on the incognito start page, similar to "doesn't make you anonymous" warnings, it seems fine (by design) to me. If anyone has any pointers to documentation on the forensics aspects of this I'd appreciate a link. It doesn't look like there's that much open source available for the new-ish Windows 8+ hibernation file: https://github.com/volatilityfoundation/volatility/issues/25 https://github.com/volatilityfoundation/volatility/issues/25
- throwaway2048 10y ago
  Why would anyone find this behaviour desirable? We should ask that before going to the "If its documented its the user's fault" truncheon.
  - j_s 10y ago
    before going to the "If its documented its the user's fault" truncheon To be clear to anyone else reading this, that's not what I said nor close to what I meant. I think I understand where you're coming from though.
    - throwaway2048 10y ago
      sorry for the quotes didn't intend to make it look like you said that.

by furyg3 10y ago

M4v3R 10y ago

Well to be honest they don't say that the browser doesn't store your browsing data temporarily. As a matter of fact it has to do that in order to provide you with caching, cookies and local storage for your private browsing session. Normally this data gets wiped out when you close the window, but when the browser crashes it doesn't have chance to do so, so they restore the windows for you so you can make the decision whether to close them or not.

devwastaken 10y ago
> As a matter of fact it has to do that in order to provide you with caching, cookies and local storage for your private browsing session. This is solved by knowing what is stored is private browsing data, which should be marked anyways. Safari just isn't that well thought out of a browser.
- 9935c101ab17a66 10y ago
  Bit of a sweeping statement tacked on at the end there.
- madeofpalk 10y ago
  > Safari just isn't that well thought out of a browser Safari is just a browser that has made a different set of tradeoffs.
  - devwastaken 10y ago
    What tradeoff? Both chrome and Firefox treat private browsing data differently, and if they crash, will not be able to just restore it. Even if they did, its still bad design. The point of private browsing is to make it so when that window exits, that data doesn't exist anymore. You can still pull it up in new tabs in Firefox, but not if the window itself closes.
    - blowski 10y ago
      > The point of private browsing is to make it so when that window exits, that data doesn't exist anymore Who defined it that way? And how do you define 'exit', 'data' and 'exist'?
      - devwastaken 10y ago
        What is reality anyway?
        aljones 10y ago
        Typically in macos, closing windows doesn't quit applications and quitting applications doesn't close windows.
    - kalleboo 10y ago
      I'm just speculating here, but since macOS/iOS have native APIs that automatically enable state restoration, Safari might be using those instead of reinventing the wheel for cross-platform compatibility like Chrome and Firefox need to. Leveraging native APIs means less code (fewer bugs), less disk usage, less RAM usage, etc.
    - k-mcgrady 10y ago
      >> Both chrome and Firefox treat private browsing data differently >> The point of private browsing is to make it so when that window exits, that data doesn't exist anymore. When defining what private browsing is supposed to do we should keep in mind Safari was the first major browser to introduce the feature.
      - daxelrod 10y ago
        Sure, but it also didn't save/restore any window or tab state at that time. All those features came later, so this represents a change in how things act between Safari versions.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

abalone 10y ago

That's a MacOS thing, not just a Safari thing. Windows stay open until you close them, even across restarts. MacOS, like iOS, has mostly retired the concept of "quitting an app kills state". (You can go back to the old behavior via a system setting: "Close windows when quitting an app")

Nullabillity 10y ago
Storing stuff on disk that should be kept purely in-memory is a Mac thing?
- kalleboo 10y ago
  Being able to pull the plug/battery on a computer and then having the restored state be exactly the same is a Mac thing, yeah.
  - yoz-y 10y ago
    In this particular case though it should not do so. Users do expect the private tabs to disappear after the window closes, no matter how it is closed.
    - Someone 10y ago
      I am not sure reopening private windows is a good idea, either, but Mac OS removed the rule "quitting an application closes its windows". Given that, it is logical that it reopens private windows, just as, for example, TextEdit or Numbers reopen windows with content you never explicitly saved (even across reboots)
  - dTal 10y ago
    >Being able to pull the ... battery on a computer... is a Mac thing Nope!
saurik 10y ago
This feature isn't some kind of evil magic... it isn't like it is serializing the virtual memory state of the entire process to disk in the style of unexec(): programs have to manually decide what they think matters for their suspension state; correspondingly, if this happens, Safari would have to be incorrectly saving information that the user clearly doesn't expect or want.

j_s 10y ago

As long as this functionality is documented on the incognito start page, similar to "doesn't make you anonymous" warnings, it seems fine (by design) to me. If anyone has any pointers to documentation on the forensics aspects of this I'd appreciate a link. It doesn't look like there's that much open source available for the new-ish Windows 8+ hibernation file: https://github.com/volatilityfoundation/volatility/issues/25 https://github.com/volatilityfoundation/volatility/issues/25

throwaway2048 10y ago
Why would anyone find this behaviour desirable? We should ask that before going to the "If its documented its the user's fault" truncheon.
- j_s 10y ago
  before going to the "If its documented its the user's fault" truncheon To be clear to anyone else reading this, that's not what I said nor close to what I meant. I think I understand where you're coming from though.
  - throwaway2048 10y ago
    sorry for the quotes didn't intend to make it look like you said that.