10 ms·

George Washington: A Descendant of Odin?

68 points by samclemens 10y ago

sandworm101 10y ago
Great. I cannot wait for nick cage in the thor-national treasure crossover. I lived in new england for a while and this mythmaking culture around the founding fathers gets old very quickly. The US just isnt old enough to have mythical kings and gods. That went away when the US broke from the uk. These new myths are rather weak alongside those of europe or asia.
- gragas 10y ago
  George Washington is still somewhat legendary, though, considering the cherry tree fable and the crossing of the Delaware.
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    But to get to mythical status he needs mystery. We know too much about the men. There is just too much written down about these guys for thor-like myths to develop. Napolion had "the king's touch" ... probably the last supernational power attributed to a leader of a western nation.
    - simplicio 10y ago
      People were attributing miracles to the Pope as recently as 2015. http://www.christiantoday.com/article/pope.francis.shows.his.healing.power.once.again.new.jersey.girl.12.now.cancer.free.after.he.kissed.her/74803.htm http://www.christiantoday.com/article/pope.francis.shows.his... Though I'll admit the Papacy is something of a special case as far as Western Leaders go.
- oh_sigh 10y ago
  “Of all the great national heroes and statesmen of history, Lincoln is the only real giant. Alexander, Frederick the Great, Caesar, Napoleon, Gladstone and even Washington stand in greatness of character, in depth of feeling and in a certain moral power far behind Lincoln. Lincoln was a man of whom a nation has a right to be proud; he was a Christ in miniature, a saint of humanity, whose name will live thousands of years in the legends of future generations. We are still too near to his greatness, and so can hardly appreciate his divine power; but after a few centuries more our posterity will find him considerably bigger than we do. His genius is still too strong and too powerful for the common understanding, just as the sun is too hot when its light beams directly on us. https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.loa.org/images/pdf/Tolstoy_on_Lincoln.pdf https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.loa.org/images...
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    That's kind of interesting. Is there a branch of the humanities that tries to predict which cultural icons will become mythologized over time? I fear 500 years from know people will start wars over ancient Chuck Norris memes.
    - mbroncano 10y ago
      I could imagine Steve Jobs becoming such an icon.
    - sverige 10y ago
      No need to wait and wonder. There are already wars raging over Pepe the Frog memes.
  - macintux 10y ago
    Yes, if I had to mythologize someone from US history, it would absolutely be Lincoln. The re-integration of the South after the war probably would have gone dramatically differently had he not been assassinated, and who knows what long-term impact that might've had. Heck, we might still be a liberal democracy.
    - sverige 10y ago
      Tragically, Lincoln made a liberal democracy out of a democratic republic. More tragically, Washington made a democratic republic out of a constitutional monarchy.
      - oh_sigh 10y ago
        Yup, poor America. Imagine what could have been, if only they remained under a king.
        sverige 10y ago
        Well, slavery would have ended 40 years earlier, among other things.
- dragontamer 10y ago
  > The US just isnt old enough to have mythical kings and gods. Mostly because US-tradition has killed the concept of nobility. US-based folklore and myth is on stuff like John Henry (wielded two sledgehammers to beat out a rail-engine at building railroads). Modern-US folklore is about beings like "Spiderman" or "Batman". Mythical beings who roam the streets to try and make the world a better place. I find it fascinating that the heroes of modern myth and legend are relatively small scale. US heroes / legends need to be about the people. Spiderman is always saving that old-lady who's crossing the street. Even Superman is mostly concerned about keeping "Metropolis" working. Batman may be rich, but he's a celebrated hero because he's otherwise an unexceptional person (compared to Superman or Wonder Woman anyway). The US-based myths and legends are about the "every-day man". Its more about "you too can be a hero" sort of thing, as opposed to a literal being chosen by the gods to save and/or conquer the world (god-kings like Gilgamesh or even King Author: charged by the Christian god to find the Holy Grail... Jesus's cup from the Last Supper) That sort of thing doesn't fly in the US. If you are an "ascended being" of some sort, you have to have humble beginnings as an every-day man (ex: Clark Kent was born and raised on a Farm... originally without any powers and therefore understands the issues facing normal men). Indeed, the ascended god-king trope is almost a villain trope in US culture.
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    But America does build temples dedicated to past presidents. These hold relics. The faithful go on pilgrimage to be near these relics. Ive seen people pray at these temples, but i assume for the dead president rather than at or to them. Nobody has yet suggested to me that they are literal saints. Important aspects of political life use these temples as backdrop, to imply that the dead president approves of the procedings. This is rather unique in the western world. The line between secular museum and religious temple blurs. I dont think anyone prays at the batman museum.
    - vkou 10y ago
      This isn't even limited to particular president-saints. I was amazed to see the presidential debate last year held in front of a larger-then-life backdrop of the US constitution. It felt like watching a cross-over between a pious ritual, and 'Better Call Saul's' sleazy law office on Breaking Bad.
- powera 10y ago
  I know a bunch of people in Utah who would disagree with you.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  It's more than that. Early American presidents, particularly Washington specifically and emphatically rejected attribution of divine or otherwise mysterious powers.
jessaustin 10y ago
TIL that George Washington had the phrase "the ends justify the means" painted on his carriage. That's an honest if unsettling bumper sticker for a President.
- vkou 10y ago
  That has always been the case in geopolitics.
  - mwfunk 10y ago
    This is true, although you can tell a lot about someone's character by whether they have to be dragged kicking and screaming to take the low road, vs. going straight to it and being proud of themselves for doing so. No idea which bucket Washington fell into though, just a tangential observation.
- Glyptodon 10y ago
  I don't know if it's properly historically true but I've seen several explanations claim it's intended as a statement of support for the Revolutionary war, something along the lines of the "just" outcome making the means ("war/rebellion") acceptable. IE I guess it's supposed to imply that "fit/just" ends make their means more so than just any end.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    I'm no scholar of Ovid, but even in your interpretation, the actions under consideration aren't seen as particularly defensible in and of themselves. Rather, they're acceptable when viewed from a certain perspective. Probably most actions are like that, but the pride evinced in this dictum should be reserved for actions that are self-evidently ethical, rather than relatively so.
    - rrggrr 10y ago
      That interpretation is a classical definition of virtue and I would argue very consistent from Washington throughout history to Plato.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jcriddle4 10y ago
I was hoping some DNA analysis would show up in the article to show a provable family tree.
- jacobush 10y ago
  Probably Homo Sapiens, I gather.
- madaxe_again 10y ago
  Provable is rather the key bit - like Washington, I too am apparently a descendent of Odin, through several branches of my once-aristocratic family. I put no stead whatsoever in it, as it both assumes no bastardy or affairs, and that legendary genealogies are factual. That said, it is fun to watch "Vikings" and go "he's my 37th great grandfather". In fact, going by my DNA I have a sizeable chunk of west African in me - which appears nowhere in the family tree.
- int_19h 10y ago
  This sort of thing was really popular in that period, and went along (and peaked) with romantic nationalism.
yread 10y ago
There is a lot you didn't know about Washington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbRom1Rz8OA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbRom1Rz8OA
vmarsy 10y ago
This reminds me of the one the myth that French are descendants of the Trojans [1][2][3]. That one has more credibility since in both instances French and Trojans got defeated and beat a retreat :) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francus [2] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9gende_de_l%27origine_troyenne_des_Francs https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9gende_de_l%27origine_tr... (more details but in French) [3] http://atlantide.univ-nantes.fr/IMG/pdf/macmaster.pdf http://atlantide.univ-nantes.fr/IMG/pdf/macmaster.pdf
KWxIUElW8Xt0tD9 10y ago
Odin? That rings a bell. Aha -- here it is, an essay defending the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles as a genealogical record compatible with the Genesis table of nations. It rang a bell because Odin is one of the persons in the tree. http://www.ldolphin.org/cooper/ch6.html http://www.ldolphin.org/cooper/ch6.html
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
IndianAstronaut 10y ago
This is similar to the Almighty Johnsons storyline.

68 points by samclemens 10y ago

Great. I cannot wait for nick cage in the thor-national treasure crossover. I lived in new england for a while and this mythmaking culture around the founding fathers gets old very quickly. The US just isnt old enough to have mythical kings and gods. That went away when the US broke from the uk. These new myths are rather weak alongside those of europe or asia.

gragas 10y ago
George Washington is still somewhat legendary, though, considering the cherry tree fable and the crossing of the Delaware.
- sandworm101 10y ago
  But to get to mythical status he needs mystery. We know too much about the men. There is just too much written down about these guys for thor-like myths to develop. Napolion had "the king's touch" ... probably the last supernational power attributed to a leader of a western nation.
  - simplicio 10y ago
    People were attributing miracles to the Pope as recently as 2015. http://www.christiantoday.com/article/pope.francis.shows.his.healing.power.once.again.new.jersey.girl.12.now.cancer.free.after.he.kissed.her/74803.htm http://www.christiantoday.com/article/pope.francis.shows.his... Though I'll admit the Papacy is something of a special case as far as Western Leaders go.
oh_sigh 10y ago
“Of all the great national heroes and statesmen of history, Lincoln is the only real giant. Alexander, Frederick the Great, Caesar, Napoleon, Gladstone and even Washington stand in greatness of character, in depth of feeling and in a certain moral power far behind Lincoln. Lincoln was a man of whom a nation has a right to be proud; he was a Christ in miniature, a saint of humanity, whose name will live thousands of years in the legends of future generations. We are still too near to his greatness, and so can hardly appreciate his divine power; but after a few centuries more our posterity will find him considerably bigger than we do. His genius is still too strong and too powerful for the common understanding, just as the sun is too hot when its light beams directly on us. https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.loa.org/images/pdf/Tolstoy_on_Lincoln.pdf https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.loa.org/images...
- nitrogen 10y ago
  That's kind of interesting. Is there a branch of the humanities that tries to predict which cultural icons will become mythologized over time? I fear 500 years from know people will start wars over ancient Chuck Norris memes.
  - mbroncano 10y ago
    I could imagine Steve Jobs becoming such an icon.
  - sverige 10y ago
    No need to wait and wonder. There are already wars raging over Pepe the Frog memes.
- macintux 10y ago
  Yes, if I had to mythologize someone from US history, it would absolutely be Lincoln. The re-integration of the South after the war probably would have gone dramatically differently had he not been assassinated, and who knows what long-term impact that might've had. Heck, we might still be a liberal democracy.
  - sverige 10y ago
    Tragically, Lincoln made a liberal democracy out of a democratic republic. More tragically, Washington made a democratic republic out of a constitutional monarchy.
    - oh_sigh 10y ago
      Yup, poor America. Imagine what could have been, if only they remained under a king.
      - sverige 10y ago
        Well, slavery would have ended 40 years earlier, among other things.
dragontamer 10y ago
> The US just isnt old enough to have mythical kings and gods. Mostly because US-tradition has killed the concept of nobility. US-based folklore and myth is on stuff like John Henry (wielded two sledgehammers to beat out a rail-engine at building railroads). Modern-US folklore is about beings like "Spiderman" or "Batman". Mythical beings who roam the streets to try and make the world a better place. I find it fascinating that the heroes of modern myth and legend are relatively small scale. US heroes / legends need to be about the people. Spiderman is always saving that old-lady who's crossing the street. Even Superman is mostly concerned about keeping "Metropolis" working. Batman may be rich, but he's a celebrated hero because he's otherwise an unexceptional person (compared to Superman or Wonder Woman anyway). The US-based myths and legends are about the "every-day man". Its more about "you too can be a hero" sort of thing, as opposed to a literal being chosen by the gods to save and/or conquer the world (god-kings like Gilgamesh or even King Author: charged by the Christian god to find the Holy Grail... Jesus's cup from the Last Supper) That sort of thing doesn't fly in the US. If you are an "ascended being" of some sort, you have to have humble beginnings as an every-day man (ex: Clark Kent was born and raised on a Farm... originally without any powers and therefore understands the issues facing normal men). Indeed, the ascended god-king trope is almost a villain trope in US culture.
- sandworm101 10y ago
  But America does build temples dedicated to past presidents. These hold relics. The faithful go on pilgrimage to be near these relics. Ive seen people pray at these temples, but i assume for the dead president rather than at or to them. Nobody has yet suggested to me that they are literal saints. Important aspects of political life use these temples as backdrop, to imply that the dead president approves of the procedings. This is rather unique in the western world. The line between secular museum and religious temple blurs. I dont think anyone prays at the batman museum.
  - vkou 10y ago
    This isn't even limited to particular president-saints. I was amazed to see the presidential debate last year held in front of a larger-then-life backdrop of the US constitution. It felt like watching a cross-over between a pious ritual, and 'Better Call Saul's' sleazy law office on Breaking Bad.
powera 10y ago
I know a bunch of people in Utah who would disagree with you.
Spooky23 10y ago
It's more than that. Early American presidents, particularly Washington specifically and emphatically rejected attribution of divine or otherwise mysterious powers.

jessaustin 10y ago

TIL that George Washington had the phrase "the ends justify the means" painted on his carriage. That's an honest if unsettling bumper sticker for a President.

vkou 10y ago
That has always been the case in geopolitics.
- mwfunk 10y ago
  This is true, although you can tell a lot about someone's character by whether they have to be dragged kicking and screaming to take the low road, vs. going straight to it and being proud of themselves for doing so. No idea which bucket Washington fell into though, just a tangential observation.
Glyptodon 10y ago
I don't know if it's properly historically true but I've seen several explanations claim it's intended as a statement of support for the Revolutionary war, something along the lines of the "just" outcome making the means ("war/rebellion") acceptable. IE I guess it's supposed to imply that "fit/just" ends make their means more so than just any end.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  I'm no scholar of Ovid, but even in your interpretation, the actions under consideration aren't seen as particularly defensible in and of themselves. Rather, they're acceptable when viewed from a certain perspective. Probably most actions are like that, but the pride evinced in this dictum should be reserved for actions that are self-evidently ethical, rather than relatively so.
  - rrggrr 10y ago
    That interpretation is a classical definition of virtue and I would argue very consistent from Washington throughout history to Plato.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

jcriddle4 10y ago

I was hoping some DNA analysis would show up in the article to show a provable family tree.

jacobush 10y ago
Probably Homo Sapiens, I gather.
madaxe_again 10y ago
Provable is rather the key bit - like Washington, I too am apparently a descendent of Odin, through several branches of my once-aristocratic family. I put no stead whatsoever in it, as it both assumes no bastardy or affairs, and that legendary genealogies are factual. That said, it is fun to watch "Vikings" and go "he's my 37th great grandfather". In fact, going by my DNA I have a sizeable chunk of west African in me - which appears nowhere in the family tree.
int_19h 10y ago
This sort of thing was really popular in that period, and went along (and peaked) with romantic nationalism.

yread 10y ago

There is a lot you didn't know about Washington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbRom1Rz8OA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbRom1Rz8OA

vmarsy 10y ago

This reminds me of the one the myth that French are descendants of the Trojans [1][2][3]. That one has more credibility since in both instances French and Trojans got defeated and beat a retreat :) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francus [2] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9gende_de_l%27origine_troyenne_des_Francs https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9gende_de_l%27origine_tr... (more details but in French) [3] http://atlantide.univ-nantes.fr/IMG/pdf/macmaster.pdf http://atlantide.univ-nantes.fr/IMG/pdf/macmaster.pdf

KWxIUElW8Xt0tD9 10y ago

Odin? That rings a bell. Aha -- here it is, an essay defending the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles as a genealogical record compatible with the Genesis table of nations. It rang a bell because Odin is one of the persons in the tree. http://www.ldolphin.org/cooper/ch6.html http://www.ldolphin.org/cooper/ch6.html

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

IndianAstronaut 10y ago

This is similar to the Almighty Johnsons storyline.