44 ms·

iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories

129 points by shawndumas 10y ago

9gunpi 10y ago
Apple engineers are not different from the rest of people - deliver first, fix when fails. Wiping tombstones in constantly-syncing environment is a cumbersome piece of engineering.
marricks 10y ago
That's not good, but at least they had this going for them? > Unlike most iCloud data, the records don’t seem to have been accessible to law enforcement requests. Apple declined to comment when reached by The Verge.
- yakult 10y ago
  I would like more clarification as to what this means. Does this mean the histories are purely client-side? If that's not the case, I don't see how they can make this claim.
  - 9gunpi 10y ago
    >If that's not the case, I don't see how they can make this claim. Nobody knew it was even available?
  - gilgoomesh 10y ago
    That whole sentence seems mistaken since no iCloud data is available to law enforcement. iCloud is AES encrypted with keys that are held by the user-only (not Apple). As people have pointed out, yes, Apple is a trusted part of the system and could release a new iOS/macOS update that captures these keys but short of that, neither Apple nor law enforcement have any access to your iCloud data.
    - petrikapu 10y ago
      I think Apple has keys for your iCloud data. "iCloud uses a minimum of 128-bit AES encryption and never provides encryption keys to any third parties." If I interpret this correctly I am first party, Apple is second and third is everyone else. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
    - tinus_hn 10y ago
      If that were really the case, how could you restore your data to a new iPhone? It's probably like the Dropbox encryption: its encrypted but they do have the key.
      - Zr40 10y ago
        The key could be encrypted using the account password.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
wildchild 10y ago
> That function typically requires a record that a given site has been visited and cleared. This is for your enhanced user experience. I believe it's a great example of how retarded developers can be tho.
- chillaxtian 10y ago
  tombstones are necessary when doing distributed deletes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombstone_(data_store) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombstone_(data_store)
  - dantiberian 10y ago
    That was my thought too, it sounds like the tombstones were never deleted.
neotek 10y ago
Sounds like a mistake rather than some nefarious data collection strategy. Apple doesn't rely on advertising revenue like Google or Facebook so in the past they've been much more likely to avoid collecting data whenever it could get in the way of their self-professed privacy narrative.
- kartickv 10y ago
  Storing data on Apple's cloud services is a privacy risk given their inability to keep it secure. We had the celebrity iCloud hack, caused at least in part by Apple not using 2FA for iCloud logins. And now this privacy failure. Storing your data on a cloud service that isn't competent is a privacy risk. And a reliability risk, as I found out last year when my albums on iCloud Photos disappeared. Not the photos themselves, just the albums in which I organised them, but organising data can take a lot of time, and any data loss is unacceptable. They weren't in trash. Apple's "self-professed privacy narrative" is partly right, but partly marketing, and partly disingenous, as if collecting data has no other purpose than advertising: https://dcurt.is/privacy-vs-user-experience https://dcurt.is/privacy-vs-user-experience To be clear, I'm not taking a black-and-white view; it's partly right, partly wrong. BTW, The Verge wasn't clear — was the forensics firm getting data from an iDevice or Mac's local storage, or across the Internet from iCloud servers?
  - izacus 10y ago
    Apples approach to security is nicely summarized by the fact, that you're not allowed to use 2FA for iCloud at all on a Mac if you don't own an iPhone.
    - simonh 10y ago
      Both two step authentication and two factor authentication can be set up to use text message or phone call verification to an arbitrary phone number.
      - izacus 10y ago
r721 10y ago
That's why I'm wary of browser sync as a concept. Maybe it's not as convenient, but I would better transfer bookmarks as an export file, and passwords as a password manager encrypted container. As for browsing history I'm not even sure it has any long-term importance - useful browsed links can be bookmarked, saved to delicious/diigo/pinboard, tweeted, upvoted on reddit/hn, whatever.
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  FF used to have browser-sync that you could send to your own server. Last I checked they had disabled it, but I wish it could be revitalized.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 10y ago
    Has anyone heard about an open source extension doing the same thing?
    - mrmondo 10y ago
      Firefox has the ability to save bookmarks and all settings for that matter to a local folder upon closing the browser, you could then use an open source and hopefully encrypted sync tool to replicate those backups. Might be a bit clunky at first but if it catches on I'm sure one of the open source sync tools will come up with some sort of integration.
    - Outpox 10y ago
      I wanted to make one for Vivaldi but it doesn't use Chromium bookmarks API and there was a discussion about it already where it was said to be implemented with the option to sync on a self-hosted server. (https://forum.vivaldi.net/topic/5816/sync-settings-and-bookmarks https://forum.vivaldi.net/topic/5816/sync-settings-and-bookm...) I've also been working on one for Chrome but haven't had time lately to work on it.
  - pmontra 10y ago
    I didn't try but it doesn't seem to be disabled. They have two guides Self hosted sync server https://docs.services.mozilla.com/howtos/run-sync-1.5.html https://docs.services.mozilla.com/howtos/run-sync-1.5.html Self hosted accounts server https://docs.services.mozilla.com/howtos/run-fxa.html#howto-run-fxa https://docs.services.mozilla.com/howtos/run-fxa.html#howto-... The latter includes instructions about how to add the accounts server url to about:config
legodt 10y ago
Test
feelix 10y ago
If you're concerned about artifacts being left around, then you should also know that there is a log file of every file you've ever downloaded, including in private browsing mode. You can see it with this: https://macdaddy.io/cleandisk/ https://macdaddy.io/cleandisk/
- skissane 10y ago
  Today I learned that $HOME/Library/Preferences/com.apple.LaunchServices.QuarantineEventsV2 is a sqlite database. The LSQuarantineEvent table contains every file you ever downloaded, the source URL is in the LSQuarantineDataURLString column. sqlite3 $HOME/Library/Preferences/com.apple.LaunchServices.QuarantineEventsV2 'select LSQuarantineDataURLString from LSQuarantineEvent' sqlite3 $HOME/Library/Preferences/com.apple.LaunchServices.QuarantineEventsV2 'delete from LSQuarantineEvent'
  - petrikapu 10y ago
    Select gives me 22 rows. I'm pretty sure I've download much more. Maybe per session?
    - feelix 10y ago
      No, it's permanent. Try the app and I think you'll see a longer history.
    - skissane 10y ago
      I saw stuff in there I downloaded days or maybe even weeks ago. (Couldn't tell you exactly when since I've deleted it all now.) I've heard reports of people seeing downloads from years ago. Here is a SQL to view timestamps: SELECT datetime(LSQuarantineTimeStamp + 978307200, "unixepoch", "localtime") as LSQuarantineTimeStamp from LSQuarantineEvent (Based on http://www.forensicswiki.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X http://www.forensicswiki.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X with modification.) In my testing, only downloads from Safari are logged here, not those from Firefox (haven't tested Chrome). If you don't use Safari as your primary browser, that might explain not seeing many downloads.
  - 10y ago
furyg3 10y ago
After a crash Safari is nice enough to restore your open windows and tabs... I've noticed several times that it's also nice enough to re-open your private browsing windows, too. That throws up some red flags for me.
- M4v3R 10y ago
  Well to be honest they don't say that the browser doesn't store your browsing data temporarily. As a matter of fact it has to do that in order to provide you with caching, cookies and local storage for your private browsing session. Normally this data gets wiped out when you close the window, but when the browser crashes it doesn't have chance to do so, so they restore the windows for you so you can make the decision whether to close them or not.
  - devwastaken 10y ago
    > As a matter of fact it has to do that in order to provide you with caching, cookies and local storage for your private browsing session. This is solved by knowing what is stored is private browsing data, which should be marked anyways. Safari just isn't that well thought out of a browser.
    - 9935c101ab17a66 10y ago
      Bit of a sweeping statement tacked on at the end there.
    - madeofpalk 10y ago
      > Safari just isn't that well thought out of a browser Safari is just a browser that has made a different set of tradeoffs.
      - devwastaken 10y ago
        What tradeoff? Both chrome and Firefox treat private browsing data differently, and if they crash, will not be able to just restore it. Even if they did, its still bad design. The point of private browsing is to make it so when that window exits, that data doesn't exist anymore. You can still pull it up in new tabs in Firefox, but not if the window itself closes.
VeejayRampay 10y ago
Doesn't matter, it's Apple and not Microsoft or Google, all is forgiven.
driverdan 10y ago
Original, non-blogspam article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2017/02/09/apple-safari-web-history-deleted-stored-icloud/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2017/02/09/apple-...
leecarraher 10y ago
backup system probably supports do not follow links, just need to add safari cache to the list. seems pretty innocuous. And if you are doing illegal stuff in your non-private browsing session, on a device that automatically backs up all of your data to the cloud... pretty sure you've left plenty of paper trail elsewhere.

129 points by shawndumas 10y ago

Apple engineers are not different from the rest of people - deliver first, fix when fails. Wiping tombstones in constantly-syncing environment is a cumbersome piece of engineering.

marricks 10y ago

That's not good, but at least they had this going for them? > Unlike most iCloud data, the records don’t seem to have been accessible to law enforcement requests. Apple declined to comment when reached by The Verge.

yakult 10y ago
I would like more clarification as to what this means. Does this mean the histories are purely client-side? If that's not the case, I don't see how they can make this claim.
- 9gunpi 10y ago
  >If that's not the case, I don't see how they can make this claim. Nobody knew it was even available?
- gilgoomesh 10y ago
  That whole sentence seems mistaken since no iCloud data is available to law enforcement. iCloud is AES encrypted with keys that are held by the user-only (not Apple). As people have pointed out, yes, Apple is a trusted part of the system and could release a new iOS/macOS update that captures these keys but short of that, neither Apple nor law enforcement have any access to your iCloud data.
  - petrikapu 10y ago
    I think Apple has keys for your iCloud data. "iCloud uses a minimum of 128-bit AES encryption and never provides encryption keys to any third parties." If I interpret this correctly I am first party, Apple is second and third is everyone else. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
  - tinus_hn 10y ago
    If that were really the case, how could you restore your data to a new iPhone? It's probably like the Dropbox encryption: its encrypted but they do have the key.
    - Zr40 10y ago
      The key could be encrypted using the account password.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

wildchild 10y ago

> That function typically requires a record that a given site has been visited and cleared. This is for your enhanced user experience. I believe it's a great example of how retarded developers can be tho.

chillaxtian 10y ago
tombstones are necessary when doing distributed deletes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombstone_(data_store) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombstone_(data_store)
- dantiberian 10y ago
  That was my thought too, it sounds like the tombstones were never deleted.

neotek 10y ago

Sounds like a mistake rather than some nefarious data collection strategy. Apple doesn't rely on advertising revenue like Google or Facebook so in the past they've been much more likely to avoid collecting data whenever it could get in the way of their self-professed privacy narrative.

kartickv 10y ago
Storing data on Apple's cloud services is a privacy risk given their inability to keep it secure. We had the celebrity iCloud hack, caused at least in part by Apple not using 2FA for iCloud logins. And now this privacy failure. Storing your data on a cloud service that isn't competent is a privacy risk. And a reliability risk, as I found out last year when my albums on iCloud Photos disappeared. Not the photos themselves, just the albums in which I organised them, but organising data can take a lot of time, and any data loss is unacceptable. They weren't in trash. Apple's "self-professed privacy narrative" is partly right, but partly marketing, and partly disingenous, as if collecting data has no other purpose than advertising: https://dcurt.is/privacy-vs-user-experience https://dcurt.is/privacy-vs-user-experience To be clear, I'm not taking a black-and-white view; it's partly right, partly wrong. BTW, The Verge wasn't clear — was the forensics firm getting data from an iDevice or Mac's local storage, or across the Internet from iCloud servers?
- izacus 10y ago
  Apples approach to security is nicely summarized by the fact, that you're not allowed to use 2FA for iCloud at all on a Mac if you don't own an iPhone.
  - simonh 10y ago
    Both two step authentication and two factor authentication can be set up to use text message or phone call verification to an arbitrary phone number.
    - izacus 10y ago

r721 10y ago

That's why I'm wary of browser sync as a concept. Maybe it's not as convenient, but I would better transfer bookmarks as an export file, and passwords as a password manager encrypted container. As for browsing history I'm not even sure it has any long-term importance - useful browsed links can be bookmarked, saved to delicious/diigo/pinboard, tweeted, upvoted on reddit/hn, whatever.

CaptSpify 10y ago
FF used to have browser-sync that you could send to your own server. Last I checked they had disabled it, but I wish it could be revitalized.
- dvfjsdhgfv 10y ago
  Has anyone heard about an open source extension doing the same thing?
  - mrmondo 10y ago
    Firefox has the ability to save bookmarks and all settings for that matter to a local folder upon closing the browser, you could then use an open source and hopefully encrypted sync tool to replicate those backups. Might be a bit clunky at first but if it catches on I'm sure one of the open source sync tools will come up with some sort of integration.
  - Outpox 10y ago
    I wanted to make one for Vivaldi but it doesn't use Chromium bookmarks API and there was a discussion about it already where it was said to be implemented with the option to sync on a self-hosted server. (https://forum.vivaldi.net/topic/5816/sync-settings-and-bookmarks https://forum.vivaldi.net/topic/5816/sync-settings-and-bookm...) I've also been working on one for Chrome but haven't had time lately to work on it.
- pmontra 10y ago
  I didn't try but it doesn't seem to be disabled. They have two guides Self hosted sync server https://docs.services.mozilla.com/howtos/run-sync-1.5.html https://docs.services.mozilla.com/howtos/run-sync-1.5.html Self hosted accounts server https://docs.services.mozilla.com/howtos/run-fxa.html#howto-run-fxa https://docs.services.mozilla.com/howtos/run-fxa.html#howto-... The latter includes instructions about how to add the accounts server url to about:config

legodt 10y ago

Test

feelix 10y ago

If you're concerned about artifacts being left around, then you should also know that there is a log file of every file you've ever downloaded, including in private browsing mode. You can see it with this: https://macdaddy.io/cleandisk/ https://macdaddy.io/cleandisk/

skissane 10y ago
Today I learned that $HOME/Library/Preferences/com.apple.LaunchServices.QuarantineEventsV2 is a sqlite database. The LSQuarantineEvent table contains every file you ever downloaded, the source URL is in the LSQuarantineDataURLString column. sqlite3 $HOME/Library/Preferences/com.apple.LaunchServices.QuarantineEventsV2 'select LSQuarantineDataURLString from LSQuarantineEvent' sqlite3 $HOME/Library/Preferences/com.apple.LaunchServices.QuarantineEventsV2 'delete from LSQuarantineEvent'
- petrikapu 10y ago
  Select gives me 22 rows. I'm pretty sure I've download much more. Maybe per session?
  - feelix 10y ago
    No, it's permanent. Try the app and I think you'll see a longer history.
  - skissane 10y ago
    I saw stuff in there I downloaded days or maybe even weeks ago. (Couldn't tell you exactly when since I've deleted it all now.) I've heard reports of people seeing downloads from years ago. Here is a SQL to view timestamps: SELECT datetime(LSQuarantineTimeStamp + 978307200, "unixepoch", "localtime") as LSQuarantineTimeStamp from LSQuarantineEvent (Based on http://www.forensicswiki.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X http://www.forensicswiki.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X with modification.) In my testing, only downloads from Safari are logged here, not those from Firefox (haven't tested Chrome). If you don't use Safari as your primary browser, that might explain not seeing many downloads.
- 10y ago

furyg3 10y ago

After a crash Safari is nice enough to restore your open windows and tabs... I've noticed several times that it's also nice enough to re-open your private browsing windows, too. That throws up some red flags for me.

M4v3R 10y ago
Well to be honest they don't say that the browser doesn't store your browsing data temporarily. As a matter of fact it has to do that in order to provide you with caching, cookies and local storage for your private browsing session. Normally this data gets wiped out when you close the window, but when the browser crashes it doesn't have chance to do so, so they restore the windows for you so you can make the decision whether to close them or not.
- devwastaken 10y ago
  > As a matter of fact it has to do that in order to provide you with caching, cookies and local storage for your private browsing session. This is solved by knowing what is stored is private browsing data, which should be marked anyways. Safari just isn't that well thought out of a browser.
  - 9935c101ab17a66 10y ago
    Bit of a sweeping statement tacked on at the end there.
  - madeofpalk 10y ago
    > Safari just isn't that well thought out of a browser Safari is just a browser that has made a different set of tradeoffs.
    - devwastaken 10y ago
      What tradeoff? Both chrome and Firefox treat private browsing data differently, and if they crash, will not be able to just restore it. Even if they did, its still bad design. The point of private browsing is to make it so when that window exits, that data doesn't exist anymore. You can still pull it up in new tabs in Firefox, but not if the window itself closes.

VeejayRampay 10y ago

Doesn't matter, it's Apple and not Microsoft or Google, all is forgiven.

driverdan 10y ago

Original, non-blogspam article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2017/02/09/apple-safari-web-history-deleted-stored-icloud/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2017/02/09/apple-...

leecarraher 10y ago

backup system probably supports do not follow links, just need to add safari cache to the list. seems pretty innocuous. And if you are doing illegal stuff in your non-private browsing session, on a device that automatically backs up all of your data to the cloud... pretty sure you've left plenty of paper trail elsewhere.