7 ms·

It's hard to feel passionate about this either way for me. Yes workers should be able to unionize for their own benefit but at the same time what Tesla is doin

by kneel 10y ago

It's hard to feel passionate about this either way for me. Yes workers should be able to unionize for their own benefit but at the same time what Tesla is doing is much bigger than the individual. The company is at a crucial moment, they're about to scale up for their first consumer priced car. This is the first time I've ever heard of discontent from Tesla factory workers. It seems very calculated, but at the same time I have no knowledge of working conditions.

S_A_P 10y ago
This is my instinct as well. The timing, tone and language of this feels pretty scripted here. I don't care if Tesla unionizes or not, but they may just trade one set of problems for another if they do.
danielahn 10y ago
> but at the same time what Tesla is doing is much bigger than the individual I don't think you really believe that - if you truly internalized this, then isn't the conclusion that you should go find any way possible to contribute to them as well?
- kneel 10y ago
  I actually do believe it and that's why I reserved a model 3. Maybe I just bought into their rhetoric, maybe. But I believe that the company's vision is more directed at sustainable transportation rather than profit. They have worked really hard and brought in a lot of investment working towards an electric car. If Musk was truly profit driven he could have made a lot more money, a lot faster by directing his energy elsewhere.
  - blub 10y ago
    Reserving a model 3 is pretty weak. If you really believe in them you should work 12 hour shifts in one of their factories, making the dream happen and saving the planet.
    - kneel 10y ago
      I guess I'm coming across as too idealistic if trolls start throwing daggers. Sorry not sorry
- grzm 10y ago
  if you truly internalized this, then isn't the conclusion that you should go find any way possible to contribute to them as well? Everyone has limited resources. What you chose to contribute to and your level of contribution will vary. For example, commitments to one's family may preclude contributing to Tesla beyond reserving a Model 3 untenable. This is independent of one's belief in the impact of what Tesla is doing.
  - danielahn 10y ago
    Why? The argument being made is that the workers should suck it up and accept the low pay and grueling working conditions because of the importance of the work Tesla is doing. If you accept this argument, then why can't I also say that you should simply accept that giving up on your commitments to your family is also a necessary sacrifice?
    - grzm 10y ago
      Point well taken. I agree that reserving a Model 3 is not equivalent to working in the conditions described in the submission. Thanks for pushing back!
    - kneel 10y ago
      >The argument being made is that the workers should suck it up and accept the low pay and grueling working conditions because of the importance of the work Tesla is doing. I did not make that argument whatsoever. You made that up.
Asdfbla 10y ago
>what Tesla is doing is much bigger than the individual Man, the hype about that company truly has reached unreal proportions right now.
- AlexandrB 10y ago
  No kidding. They're building electric (and now self-driving) cars - something every car company on the planet is also trying to do. If Tesla doesn't get there it's only a small setback for the technology, not the end of electric, autonomous vehicles.
frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago
>but at the same time what Tesla is doing is much bigger than the individual. Isn't this essentially the same line used by startups to lowball recent grads? It seems to me this board would know better.
- kneel 10y ago
  Tesla has been developing cars for 14 years and they have yet to make a profit. Musk has stated numerous times that the vision of he company is sustainable transport. I realize I've probably chugged the kool-aid at this point but I can't fathom why Musk would work so hard towards this goal and not be thinking about the big picture.
  - CodeWriter23 10y ago
    Pretty sure those investors are counting on a pay day. One that comes only if Tesla hits its 500k production goal by the end of next year. Tesla has already worn out its welcome with investors, hence selling magic beans in order to raise $370M via Model 3 preorder deposits. It's do or die for them now. GM is catching up, even beat Tesla to the Everyman's car, and has capital to burn. Personally, I'm rooting for them. But they only get to play altruist if they make it pay for the investors.
wwalser 10y ago
I often feel that the hate directed toward Tesla and it's fanbase is unwarranted. Arguments about how they aren't that amazing, how their fans are over the top and how they took government subsidies just fell flat for me. They all have very transparent and valid counter-points. It's okay to feel that a corporation is pretty darn neat. It's okay if others feel it's amazeballs. Chill out. But this comment. The one I'm responding to. It's the first time I've seen someone talk about Tesla and thought "WTF? This person can't be serious." It's okay to think it's "important". I think Tesla is pretty darn neat. Asking others to quietly sacrifice their health for that thing? While being uninvolved yourself? That, I can't wrap my head around.
- kneel 10y ago
  Why don't you think I'm being serious? I stated that I'm conflicted and seeing both sides.
  - wwalser 10y ago
    My reasons are outlined in the last four sentences of my comment.
    - kneel 10y ago
      Well you're putting words in my mouth then. I never said anything about workers needing to sacrifice their health. I stated ambivalent feelings and questioned the timing while admitting my own nativity about true conditions.
      - wwalser 10y ago
        My mistake. I was suppose to read your comment, a comment on an article with multiple paragraphs dedicated to the health and safety of Tesla workers, as if it were not a response to claims about the health and safety of Tesla's workers. Got it.
- CodeWriter23 10y ago
  What "subsidies"? The tax break nearly ALL auto manufacturers are taking for the first ~250k EVs they each make? Or are we talking about the loan they took from the DoE that Tesla repaid like a decade ahead of schedule?
agitator 10y ago
Yeah the company has a big purpose, but it's ridiculous to ignore something like this. Do you think a majority of the factory employees or even engineering employees, for that matter, care about the "big goal"? I assure you that they don't. Early on in the company, yes, a majority felt that way, but now its an established corporation trading $ for labor. If they don't care about their employees, many of them will go elsewhere, which isn't in Tesla's interest for the time being.
steego 10y ago
> It seems very calculated. Union organization is very calculated. It has to be because union opposition is also very calculated, especially when it's done lawfully. It's calculated because there are very specific protocols that have to be followed that may or may not be enforced by laws with sharp teeth (depending on the state). This makes it very sensitive. Also, public relations is a significant part of the playing field. The company and the union are trying to use it to both bolster and gauge support. With all that said, I wish the best for both parties in coming to an agreement where workers can safely and efficiently build cars that will eventually replace most gas powered cars with all its moving parts with EV cars with minimal moving parts.
idiot_stick 10y ago
>Tesla is doing is much bigger than the individual. The company is at a crucial moment, they're about to scale up for their first consumer priced car. How so? What is it that they're doing that is so special, beyond what Ford, GM, Toyota, Fiat, VW Group and a multitude of others are doing? They're building electric cars. All of them. Why do people think Tesla deserves "special snowflake" status?
- kneel 10y ago
  Tesla is leading the way in electric vehicles and they've been doing it for a while. They've given away all their engineering blueprints, for free. They've yet to make a profit and somehow the entire industry is following them. Snowflake or trail blazer?
  - mhermher 10y ago
    Are they really? GM beat them by a few years on getting out an affordable all electric car (the Bolt) and an alternating electric/ICE car (the Volt). Both of which are very well reviewed and received by customers. It seems like GM is leading the way to me, while Tesla has been dragging its feet and making luxury cars. But I guess GM is not sexy enough for 20 somethings.
    - kneel 10y ago
      Tesla never attempted to enter the hybrid market and was never competing with the Volt. The Bolt is a rush to market toy car. You're right they beat Tesla to the market with an affordable car, but no one wants it because it's tiny and GM has built a terrible reputation for itself. Sales numbers reflect this. For most people a car is a significant purchase and value plays a large role in this purchase.
      - mhermher 10y ago
        The Volt isn't a hybrid in the traditional sense at all. It is fully electric if you want it to be. I've actually been eying it as my next purchase. It is very unique among cars in the way it works. It only becomes a hybrid when it runs out of charge.

by kneel 10y ago

S_A_P 10y ago

This is my instinct as well. The timing, tone and language of this feels pretty scripted here. I don't care if Tesla unionizes or not, but they may just trade one set of problems for another if they do.

danielahn 10y ago

> but at the same time what Tesla is doing is much bigger than the individual I don't think you really believe that - if you truly internalized this, then isn't the conclusion that you should go find any way possible to contribute to them as well?

kneel 10y ago
I actually do believe it and that's why I reserved a model 3. Maybe I just bought into their rhetoric, maybe. But I believe that the company's vision is more directed at sustainable transportation rather than profit. They have worked really hard and brought in a lot of investment working towards an electric car. If Musk was truly profit driven he could have made a lot more money, a lot faster by directing his energy elsewhere.
- blub 10y ago
  Reserving a model 3 is pretty weak. If you really believe in them you should work 12 hour shifts in one of their factories, making the dream happen and saving the planet.
  - kneel 10y ago
    I guess I'm coming across as too idealistic if trolls start throwing daggers. Sorry not sorry
grzm 10y ago
if you truly internalized this, then isn't the conclusion that you should go find any way possible to contribute to them as well? Everyone has limited resources. What you chose to contribute to and your level of contribution will vary. For example, commitments to one's family may preclude contributing to Tesla beyond reserving a Model 3 untenable. This is independent of one's belief in the impact of what Tesla is doing.
- danielahn 10y ago
  Why? The argument being made is that the workers should suck it up and accept the low pay and grueling working conditions because of the importance of the work Tesla is doing. If you accept this argument, then why can't I also say that you should simply accept that giving up on your commitments to your family is also a necessary sacrifice?
  - grzm 10y ago
    Point well taken. I agree that reserving a Model 3 is not equivalent to working in the conditions described in the submission. Thanks for pushing back!
  - kneel 10y ago
    >The argument being made is that the workers should suck it up and accept the low pay and grueling working conditions because of the importance of the work Tesla is doing. I did not make that argument whatsoever. You made that up.

Asdfbla 10y ago

>what Tesla is doing is much bigger than the individual Man, the hype about that company truly has reached unreal proportions right now.

AlexandrB 10y ago
No kidding. They're building electric (and now self-driving) cars - something every car company on the planet is also trying to do. If Tesla doesn't get there it's only a small setback for the technology, not the end of electric, autonomous vehicles.

frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago

>but at the same time what Tesla is doing is much bigger than the individual. Isn't this essentially the same line used by startups to lowball recent grads? It seems to me this board would know better.

kneel 10y ago
Tesla has been developing cars for 14 years and they have yet to make a profit. Musk has stated numerous times that the vision of he company is sustainable transport. I realize I've probably chugged the kool-aid at this point but I can't fathom why Musk would work so hard towards this goal and not be thinking about the big picture.
- CodeWriter23 10y ago
  Pretty sure those investors are counting on a pay day. One that comes only if Tesla hits its 500k production goal by the end of next year. Tesla has already worn out its welcome with investors, hence selling magic beans in order to raise $370M via Model 3 preorder deposits. It's do or die for them now. GM is catching up, even beat Tesla to the Everyman's car, and has capital to burn. Personally, I'm rooting for them. But they only get to play altruist if they make it pay for the investors.

wwalser 10y ago

I often feel that the hate directed toward Tesla and it's fanbase is unwarranted. Arguments about how they aren't that amazing, how their fans are over the top and how they took government subsidies just fell flat for me. They all have very transparent and valid counter-points. It's okay to feel that a corporation is pretty darn neat. It's okay if others feel it's amazeballs. Chill out. But this comment. The one I'm responding to. It's the first time I've seen someone talk about Tesla and thought "WTF? This person can't be serious." It's okay to think it's "important". I think Tesla is pretty darn neat. Asking others to quietly sacrifice their health for that thing? While being uninvolved yourself? That, I can't wrap my head around.

kneel 10y ago
Why don't you think I'm being serious? I stated that I'm conflicted and seeing both sides.
- wwalser 10y ago
  My reasons are outlined in the last four sentences of my comment.
  - kneel 10y ago
    Well you're putting words in my mouth then. I never said anything about workers needing to sacrifice their health. I stated ambivalent feelings and questioned the timing while admitting my own nativity about true conditions.
    - wwalser 10y ago
      My mistake. I was suppose to read your comment, a comment on an article with multiple paragraphs dedicated to the health and safety of Tesla workers, as if it were not a response to claims about the health and safety of Tesla's workers. Got it.
CodeWriter23 10y ago
What "subsidies"? The tax break nearly ALL auto manufacturers are taking for the first ~250k EVs they each make? Or are we talking about the loan they took from the DoE that Tesla repaid like a decade ahead of schedule?

agitator 10y ago

Yeah the company has a big purpose, but it's ridiculous to ignore something like this. Do you think a majority of the factory employees or even engineering employees, for that matter, care about the "big goal"? I assure you that they don't. Early on in the company, yes, a majority felt that way, but now its an established corporation trading $ for labor. If they don't care about their employees, many of them will go elsewhere, which isn't in Tesla's interest for the time being.

steego 10y ago

> It seems very calculated. Union organization is very calculated. It has to be because union opposition is also very calculated, especially when it's done lawfully. It's calculated because there are very specific protocols that have to be followed that may or may not be enforced by laws with sharp teeth (depending on the state). This makes it very sensitive. Also, public relations is a significant part of the playing field. The company and the union are trying to use it to both bolster and gauge support. With all that said, I wish the best for both parties in coming to an agreement where workers can safely and efficiently build cars that will eventually replace most gas powered cars with all its moving parts with EV cars with minimal moving parts.

idiot_stick 10y ago

>Tesla is doing is much bigger than the individual. The company is at a crucial moment, they're about to scale up for their first consumer priced car. How so? What is it that they're doing that is so special, beyond what Ford, GM, Toyota, Fiat, VW Group and a multitude of others are doing? They're building electric cars. All of them. Why do people think Tesla deserves "special snowflake" status?

kneel 10y ago
Tesla is leading the way in electric vehicles and they've been doing it for a while. They've given away all their engineering blueprints, for free. They've yet to make a profit and somehow the entire industry is following them. Snowflake or trail blazer?
- mhermher 10y ago
  Are they really? GM beat them by a few years on getting out an affordable all electric car (the Bolt) and an alternating electric/ICE car (the Volt). Both of which are very well reviewed and received by customers. It seems like GM is leading the way to me, while Tesla has been dragging its feet and making luxury cars. But I guess GM is not sexy enough for 20 somethings.
  - kneel 10y ago
    Tesla never attempted to enter the hybrid market and was never competing with the Volt. The Bolt is a rush to market toy car. You're right they beat Tesla to the market with an affordable car, but no one wants it because it's tiny and GM has built a terrible reputation for itself. Sales numbers reflect this. For most people a car is a significant purchase and value plays a large role in this purchase.
    - mhermher 10y ago
      The Volt isn't a hybrid in the traditional sense at all. It is fully electric if you want it to be. I've actually been eying it as my next purchase. It is very unique among cars in the way it works. It only becomes a hybrid when it runs out of charge.