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> Being set up for success is different than being inherently intelligent. Sure, but you're arguing against a straw man. It's simply objectively true that stu

> Being set up for success is different than being inherently intelligent. Sure, but you're arguing against a straw man. It's simply objectively true that students at elite are on average much smarter than students at other schools, and more ambitious. They're much more likely to have a viable YC application. In fact, students who get into elite schools but don't attend them still far out-perform students who never got into one.

eli_gottlieb 10y ago
>It's simply objectively true that students at elite are on average much smarter than students at other schools, and more ambitious. P(smart | elite school) != P(elite school | smart)
- morgante 10y ago
  Sure, but do you disagree that P(smart|elite school) > P(smart)? I feel like people on HN have a giant chip on their shoulder when it comes to top schools. They're filled with lots of very smart students and ignoring that is ridiculous. Nowhere do I pretend that all smart kids are at top schools, or even that the majority is. But if I wanted to select a school to go to with the highest average IQ it would definitely be an elite school. It's not like everyone is buying their way into elite schools. I certainly didn't, nor did many of my classmates.
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    >Sure, but do you disagree that P(smart|elite school) > P(smart)? I expect it to be only negligibly higher, but in the case of some elite schools like MIT or Georgia Tech, I do expect the elite kid to have received a better education. I mean, I got my master's at the Technion, so I'm one to bag on elite schools, but still. My experience was that the people weren't innately smarter than everyone else, but they had been given a bunch more background coursework and research experience when they completed their official degree level.
John23832 10y ago
> It's simply objectively true that students at elite are on average much smarter than students at other schools, and more ambitious. They're much more likely to have a viable YC application. In fact, students who get into elite schools but don't attend them still far out-perform students who never got into one. No no no... First, your "objectivity" is not objective, at best it is a common assumption. Second, nobody stumbles into Harvard and the like. That tier of school is an aim for both the child and parent from birth (probably before birth for the parents). Acceptance into these schools is the product of hard work (that I am not trying to detract from) and a financial investment (on behalf of the parent). Sure, there are some very intelligent people who take up residence in these schools, but for the VAST majority it was the hard work that got them there, not brilliant work. So yes, students who get in but don't attend can go on to be successful. However, that is a reflection of their work ethic more than their intelligence. SO being at that tier of school doesn't guarantee intelligence, just being outside of the tier doesn't exclude intelligence. At best it shows that you can work hard and probably had a bankroll of some sort.
- morgante 10y ago
  > SO being at that tier of school doesn't guarantee intelligence, just being outside of the tier doesn't exclude intelligence. You continue to argue against straw men. I never said everyone at top schools is smart, nor did I claim that everyone who is smart is at a top school. Just that the average IQ at a top university is higher than at a random one. Do you have any evidence to disprove that the average IQ at elite universities is higher? It's almost a farcical thing to argue against. For one thing, IQ correlates with SAT scores pretty heavily and SAT scores at elite universities are much higher. [0] > That tier of school is an aim for both the child and parent from birth (probably before birth for the parents). Oh give me a break. Have you ever been to an elite university? Do you know anyone there? My parents sure as hell weren't thinking about my college acceptances when they conceived me. I certainly didn't work hard to get there. There's a small population of crazy Manhattan elites who are obsessed with preparation and education status, but that's far from being everyone who goes to a top school. Most of my friends were people who just happened to be very intelligent and (in many cases) hard working. I don't understand what you are so hung up on. [0] http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=publication_detail http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=p...
akhilcacharya 10y ago
>In fact, students who get into elite schools but don't attend them still far out-perform students who never got into one. I didn't get into any elite schools - are you saying I should stop trying?

eli_gottlieb 10y ago

>It's simply objectively true that students at elite are on average much smarter than students at other schools, and more ambitious. P(smart | elite school) != P(elite school | smart)

morgante 10y ago
Sure, but do you disagree that P(smart|elite school) > P(smart)? I feel like people on HN have a giant chip on their shoulder when it comes to top schools. They're filled with lots of very smart students and ignoring that is ridiculous. Nowhere do I pretend that all smart kids are at top schools, or even that the majority is. But if I wanted to select a school to go to with the highest average IQ it would definitely be an elite school. It's not like everyone is buying their way into elite schools. I certainly didn't, nor did many of my classmates.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  >Sure, but do you disagree that P(smart|elite school) > P(smart)? I expect it to be only negligibly higher, but in the case of some elite schools like MIT or Georgia Tech, I do expect the elite kid to have received a better education. I mean, I got my master's at the Technion, so I'm one to bag on elite schools, but still. My experience was that the people weren't innately smarter than everyone else, but they had been given a bunch more background coursework and research experience when they completed their official degree level.

John23832 10y ago

> It's simply objectively true that students at elite are on average much smarter than students at other schools, and more ambitious. They're much more likely to have a viable YC application. In fact, students who get into elite schools but don't attend them still far out-perform students who never got into one. No no no... First, your "objectivity" is not objective, at best it is a common assumption. Second, nobody stumbles into Harvard and the like. That tier of school is an aim for both the child and parent from birth (probably before birth for the parents). Acceptance into these schools is the product of hard work (that I am not trying to detract from) and a financial investment (on behalf of the parent). Sure, there are some very intelligent people who take up residence in these schools, but for the VAST majority it was the hard work that got them there, not brilliant work. So yes, students who get in but don't attend can go on to be successful. However, that is a reflection of their work ethic more than their intelligence. SO being at that tier of school doesn't guarantee intelligence, just being outside of the tier doesn't exclude intelligence. At best it shows that you can work hard and probably had a bankroll of some sort.

morgante 10y ago
> SO being at that tier of school doesn't guarantee intelligence, just being outside of the tier doesn't exclude intelligence. You continue to argue against straw men. I never said everyone at top schools is smart, nor did I claim that everyone who is smart is at a top school. Just that the average IQ at a top university is higher than at a random one. Do you have any evidence to disprove that the average IQ at elite universities is higher? It's almost a farcical thing to argue against. For one thing, IQ correlates with SAT scores pretty heavily and SAT scores at elite universities are much higher. [0] > That tier of school is an aim for both the child and parent from birth (probably before birth for the parents). Oh give me a break. Have you ever been to an elite university? Do you know anyone there? My parents sure as hell weren't thinking about my college acceptances when they conceived me. I certainly didn't work hard to get there. There's a small population of crazy Manhattan elites who are obsessed with preparation and education status, but that's far from being everyone who goes to a top school. Most of my friends were people who just happened to be very intelligent and (in many cases) hard working. I don't understand what you are so hung up on. [0] http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=publication_detail http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=p...

akhilcacharya 10y ago

>In fact, students who get into elite schools but don't attend them still far out-perform students who never got into one. I didn't get into any elite schools - are you saying I should stop trying?