4 ms·

Top schools attract a disproportionate of intelligent young people. Ignoring that would be stupid.

John23832 10y ago
Being set up for success is different than being inherently intelligent. Who YC chooses to give separate attention does deserve scrutiny.
- morgante 10y ago
  > Being set up for success is different than being inherently intelligent. Sure, but you're arguing against a straw man. It's simply objectively true that students at elite are on average much smarter than students at other schools, and more ambitious. They're much more likely to have a viable YC application. In fact, students who get into elite schools but don't attend them still far out-perform students who never got into one.
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    >It's simply objectively true that students at elite are on average much smarter than students at other schools, and more ambitious. P(smart | elite school) != P(elite school | smart)
    - morgante 10y ago
      Sure, but do you disagree that P(smart|elite school) > P(smart)? I feel like people on HN have a giant chip on their shoulder when it comes to top schools. They're filled with lots of very smart students and ignoring that is ridiculous. Nowhere do I pretend that all smart kids are at top schools, or even that the majority is. But if I wanted to select a school to go to with the highest average IQ it would definitely be an elite school. It's not like everyone is buying their way into elite schools. I certainly didn't, nor did many of my classmates.
      - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
        >Sure, but do you disagree that P(smart|elite school) > P(smart)? I expect it to be only negligibly higher, but in the case of some elite schools like MIT or Georgia Tech, I do expect the elite kid to have received a better education. I mean, I got my master's at the Technion, so I'm one to bag on elite schools, but still. My experience was that the people weren't innately smarter than everyone else, but they had been given a bunch more background coursework and research experience when they completed their official degree level.
  - John23832 10y ago
    > It's simply objectively true that students at elite are on average much smarter than students at other schools, and more ambitious. They're much more likely to have a viable YC application. In fact, students who get into elite schools but don't attend them still far out-perform students who never got into one. No no no... First, your "objectivity" is not objective, at best it is a common assumption. Second, nobody stumbles into Harvard and the like. That tier of school is an aim for both the child and parent from birth (probably before birth for the parents). Acceptance into these schools is the product of hard work (that I am not trying to detract from) and a financial investment (on behalf of the parent). Sure, there are some very intelligent people who take up residence in these schools, but for the VAST majority it was the hard work that got them there, not brilliant work. So yes, students who get in but don't attend can go on to be successful. However, that is a reflection of their work ethic more than their intelligence. SO being at that tier of school doesn't guarantee intelligence, just being outside of the tier doesn't exclude intelligence. At best it shows that you can work hard and probably had a bankroll of some sort.
    - morgante 10y ago
      > SO being at that tier of school doesn't guarantee intelligence, just being outside of the tier doesn't exclude intelligence. You continue to argue against straw men. I never said everyone at top schools is smart, nor did I claim that everyone who is smart is at a top school. Just that the average IQ at a top university is higher than at a random one. Do you have any evidence to disprove that the average IQ at elite universities is higher? It's almost a farcical thing to argue against. For one thing, IQ correlates with SAT scores pretty heavily and SAT scores at elite universities are much higher. [0] > That tier of school is an aim for both the child and parent from birth (probably before birth for the parents). Oh give me a break. Have you ever been to an elite university? Do you know anyone there? My parents sure as hell weren't thinking about my college acceptances when they conceived me. I certainly didn't work hard to get there. There's a small population of crazy Manhattan elites who are obsessed with preparation and education status, but that's far from being everyone who goes to a top school. Most of my friends were people who just happened to be very intelligent and (in many cases) hard working. I don't understand what you are so hung up on. [0] http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=publication_detail http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=p...
  - akhilcacharya 10y ago
    >In fact, students who get into elite schools but don't attend them still far out-perform students who never got into one. I didn't get into any elite schools - are you saying I should stop trying?
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
>Top schools attract a disproportionate of intelligent young people. Top schools scrape off a tiny cohort of the wealthiest and best college-prepped among the smartest. The other 97% of the smartest are, well, not at top schools.
pitt1980 10y ago
Columbia has 8,410 undergraduates University of Illinois has 32,878 undergraduates the 75% SAT score for the college of engineering at University of Illinois was 1530 (no writing, so out of 1600) https://admissions.illinois.edu/Apply/Freshman/profile https://admissions.illinois.edu/Apply/Freshman/profile the 75% SAT score at Columbia was 2330 (including writing so 2330 * 2/3 = 1553.33333333 https://undergrad.admissions.columbia.edu/classprofile/2019 https://undergrad.admissions.columbia.edu/classprofile/2019 ----------------- the top 25% of a place like university of Illinois (and a lot of other big state schools like it), probably represents a critical mass of intelligent young people that would be pretty competitive with ivy league schools ---------- ---------- also, while ivy league school give out generous amounts of aid, Illinois students aren't filtered by exactly how generous a discount the financial aid office wants to give on at 55k a year tuition (I suspect the top 25% does pretty well scholarship money wise at Illinois too)
- morgante 10y ago
  > University of Illinois has 32,878 undergraduates That's a fair point. It'd be interesting if YC could do some sort of data analysis on attendance for their events at a big state school vs. an elite school. > Illinois students aren't filtered by exactly how generous a discount the financial aid office Most elite universities are need-blind. Spreading these myths does a disservice to smart, poor kids. Thinking they can't possibly get in, or afford it if they do, dissuades many of the underrepresented students from applying. That's part of why I push back so hard when people try to spread bullshit or the notion that you can only go to Harvard if you're rich. > I suspect the top 25% does pretty well scholarship money wise at Illinois too I can tell you that elite universities were a lot more generous with scholarships for me (smart, poor kid) than any lower tier schools.
  - pitt1980 10y ago
    I should probably have left out the last point as it was a distraction from the overall point whether what's dissuading them from going to ivy league schools are myths or not, the larger point, is that big state schools tend to have pretty (statistically) good critical masses at the top of them
xiaosun 10y ago
Top schools attract a disproportionate demographic of wealthy students. Of the 5 schools on the list, students from wealthy families are substantially over-represented in the student body (with MIT being a relative outlier). Nearly half of the student body at each university comes from the top 5-10% by income tier. % of students from top 1% by income ($630K) UPenn - 18.7% Stanford - 17.5% Harvard - 15.1% Columbia - 13.4% MIT - 5.7% % of students from the bottom 60% by income ($65K) UPenn - 16.5% Stanford - 18.6% Harvard - 20.4% Columbia - 21.1% MIT - 23.4% Source: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-c...

Being set up for success is different than being inherently intelligent. Who YC chooses to give separate attention does deserve scrutiny.

morgante 10y ago
> Being set up for success is different than being inherently intelligent. Sure, but you're arguing against a straw man. It's simply objectively true that students at elite are on average much smarter than students at other schools, and more ambitious. They're much more likely to have a viable YC application. In fact, students who get into elite schools but don't attend them still far out-perform students who never got into one.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  >It's simply objectively true that students at elite are on average much smarter than students at other schools, and more ambitious. P(smart | elite school) != P(elite school | smart)
  - morgante 10y ago
    Sure, but do you disagree that P(smart|elite school) > P(smart)? I feel like people on HN have a giant chip on their shoulder when it comes to top schools. They're filled with lots of very smart students and ignoring that is ridiculous. Nowhere do I pretend that all smart kids are at top schools, or even that the majority is. But if I wanted to select a school to go to with the highest average IQ it would definitely be an elite school. It's not like everyone is buying their way into elite schools. I certainly didn't, nor did many of my classmates.
    - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
      >Sure, but do you disagree that P(smart|elite school) > P(smart)? I expect it to be only negligibly higher, but in the case of some elite schools like MIT or Georgia Tech, I do expect the elite kid to have received a better education. I mean, I got my master's at the Technion, so I'm one to bag on elite schools, but still. My experience was that the people weren't innately smarter than everyone else, but they had been given a bunch more background coursework and research experience when they completed their official degree level.
- John23832 10y ago
  > It's simply objectively true that students at elite are on average much smarter than students at other schools, and more ambitious. They're much more likely to have a viable YC application. In fact, students who get into elite schools but don't attend them still far out-perform students who never got into one. No no no... First, your "objectivity" is not objective, at best it is a common assumption. Second, nobody stumbles into Harvard and the like. That tier of school is an aim for both the child and parent from birth (probably before birth for the parents). Acceptance into these schools is the product of hard work (that I am not trying to detract from) and a financial investment (on behalf of the parent). Sure, there are some very intelligent people who take up residence in these schools, but for the VAST majority it was the hard work that got them there, not brilliant work. So yes, students who get in but don't attend can go on to be successful. However, that is a reflection of their work ethic more than their intelligence. SO being at that tier of school doesn't guarantee intelligence, just being outside of the tier doesn't exclude intelligence. At best it shows that you can work hard and probably had a bankroll of some sort.
  - morgante 10y ago
    > SO being at that tier of school doesn't guarantee intelligence, just being outside of the tier doesn't exclude intelligence. You continue to argue against straw men. I never said everyone at top schools is smart, nor did I claim that everyone who is smart is at a top school. Just that the average IQ at a top university is higher than at a random one. Do you have any evidence to disprove that the average IQ at elite universities is higher? It's almost a farcical thing to argue against. For one thing, IQ correlates with SAT scores pretty heavily and SAT scores at elite universities are much higher. [0] > That tier of school is an aim for both the child and parent from birth (probably before birth for the parents). Oh give me a break. Have you ever been to an elite university? Do you know anyone there? My parents sure as hell weren't thinking about my college acceptances when they conceived me. I certainly didn't work hard to get there. There's a small population of crazy Manhattan elites who are obsessed with preparation and education status, but that's far from being everyone who goes to a top school. Most of my friends were people who just happened to be very intelligent and (in many cases) hard working. I don't understand what you are so hung up on. [0] http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=publication_detail http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=p...
- akhilcacharya 10y ago
  >In fact, students who get into elite schools but don't attend them still far out-perform students who never got into one. I didn't get into any elite schools - are you saying I should stop trying?

eli_gottlieb 10y ago

>Top schools attract a disproportionate of intelligent young people. Top schools scrape off a tiny cohort of the wealthiest and best college-prepped among the smartest. The other 97% of the smartest are, well, not at top schools.

pitt1980 10y ago

Columbia has 8,410 undergraduates University of Illinois has 32,878 undergraduates the 75% SAT score for the college of engineering at University of Illinois was 1530 (no writing, so out of 1600) https://admissions.illinois.edu/Apply/Freshman/profile https://admissions.illinois.edu/Apply/Freshman/profile the 75% SAT score at Columbia was 2330 (including writing so 2330 * 2/3 = 1553.33333333 https://undergrad.admissions.columbia.edu/classprofile/2019 https://undergrad.admissions.columbia.edu/classprofile/2019 ----------------- the top 25% of a place like university of Illinois (and a lot of other big state schools like it), probably represents a critical mass of intelligent young people that would be pretty competitive with ivy league schools ---------- ---------- also, while ivy league school give out generous amounts of aid, Illinois students aren't filtered by exactly how generous a discount the financial aid office wants to give on at 55k a year tuition (I suspect the top 25% does pretty well scholarship money wise at Illinois too)

morgante 10y ago
> University of Illinois has 32,878 undergraduates That's a fair point. It'd be interesting if YC could do some sort of data analysis on attendance for their events at a big state school vs. an elite school. > Illinois students aren't filtered by exactly how generous a discount the financial aid office Most elite universities are need-blind. Spreading these myths does a disservice to smart, poor kids. Thinking they can't possibly get in, or afford it if they do, dissuades many of the underrepresented students from applying. That's part of why I push back so hard when people try to spread bullshit or the notion that you can only go to Harvard if you're rich. > I suspect the top 25% does pretty well scholarship money wise at Illinois too I can tell you that elite universities were a lot more generous with scholarships for me (smart, poor kid) than any lower tier schools.
- pitt1980 10y ago
  I should probably have left out the last point as it was a distraction from the overall point whether what's dissuading them from going to ivy league schools are myths or not, the larger point, is that big state schools tend to have pretty (statistically) good critical masses at the top of them

xiaosun 10y ago

Top schools attract a disproportionate demographic of wealthy students. Of the 5 schools on the list, students from wealthy families are substantially over-represented in the student body (with MIT being a relative outlier). Nearly half of the student body at each university comes from the top 5-10% by income tier. % of students from top 1% by income ($630K) UPenn - 18.7% Stanford - 17.5% Harvard - 15.1% Columbia - 13.4% MIT - 5.7% % of students from the bottom 60% by income ($65K) UPenn - 16.5% Stanford - 18.6% Harvard - 20.4% Columbia - 21.1% MIT - 23.4% Source: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-c...