4 ms·

Adobe Flash To Eliminate Bandwidth Costs With P2P

38 points by ukdm 16y ago

othello 16y ago
If this delivers on its promise, couldn't it preserve Flash as a standard for video delivery online? Cutting bandwidth costs for video websites could be a significant incentive to slow down HTML5 adoption and keep Flash in the game a little while longer.
- someone_here 16y ago
  Unless HTML5 comes up with a UDP websocket protocol :D That could be fun, but also possibly a huge security concern.
  - powrtoch 16y ago
    Given Flash's record, isn't their implementation already a security concern?
  - est 16y ago
    > Unless HTML5 comes up with a UDP websocket protocol :D And passive mode for WebSocket. And NAT traversal, and a central coordinate server, and fuck it, let's just use Flash.
- dirkstoop 16y ago
  It all really depends on the implementation. None of the big players will want tech that doesn't give them enough control over minimum bandwidth/streaming performance. For small players, putting some h264/ogg files up on Amazon cloudfront may cost some money, but it's extremely easy to set up right and offers extremely good and consistent performance for the money. P2P doesn't add much for distributors that don't get massive amounts of viewers. Not saying it can't be a game changer somehow; a similar P2P strategy worked out pretty well for Skype. But given that it's all talk right now, I don't think it'll do much to slow down HTML5 adoption for a while.
billybob 16y ago
I'm not a huge fan of flash, but I do think peer-to-peer is a great way for the web to grow. Anything legitimate - making it harder for ISPs to say "it's only for pirates" and throttle it - is welcome in my book.
- someone_here 16y ago
  Deep packet inspection is already way ahead of simple protocol blocking.
  - jrockway 16y ago
    But, of course, it's easy to make your P2P packets look like anything you want, so deep packet inspection is just a way to waste electricity.
- ErrantX 16y ago
  Actually, as someone who used to help run a mico-ISP, the problem with P2P for ISP's has little to do with piracy. The major problem is it can absolutely rape networks - and it only takes one or two abusers to clog it up for everyone else. In the end we simply kicked anyone who consistently ate up bandwidth with P2P - and network reliability improved no end.
  - boredguy8 16y ago
    Help me understand this. Did you not have bandwidth caps? I understand how 'one or two abusers' could clog up a network at, say, a university where there might not be per-port or per-device limits on bandwidth. But I pay my $40/mo. for 10 down 1 up, and I never get more than that. How does, say, seeding WoW updates 'clog it up for everyone else'?
    - ErrantX 16y ago
      P2P is a deliberately greedy process - you are consistently opening a large number of connections (as opposed to a single high volume connection). One of the big issues with P2P is not the downloads per-se but the discovery process - that can seriously hammer the network (imagine how you stress test a server!) Also; it's entirely infeasible to offer a service as you describe - partly because networks just don't work like that (this answers the other commenter too). ADSL is a shared line; what other people are doing can adversely impact you regardless of the networks theoretical capability.
lukeqsee 16y ago
I wonder how many people will just "click yes" and end up not being able to watch video anymore. In the US of A, there are quite a few connections that are too slow on the upload side to handle P2P while streaming video. The idea is worthy, but it needs masterful implementation. It takes a lot to balance the upload/download speeds. I am thankful it will be a opt-in. I just hope they throughly explain it to users before they click "yes."
someone_here 16y ago
It's been coming for over a year: http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/stratus/ http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/stratus/
- est 16y ago
  I think it's refreshing because it will soon support intranet p2p, both live and on-demand. On-demand p2p is easier than live p2p.
not_an_alien 16y ago
More information http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/stratus/ http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/stratus/
eli 16y ago
The beta of this technology is what powers chatroulette, right?
- someone_here 16y ago
  Probably not. To enable this P2P, the user must accept a separate dialog window asking their permission.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - anto1ne 16y ago
    chatroulette uses stratus, or at least used it. When it became famous, it completely killed stratus server which was still in beta and not ready for massive usage. Everyone who happens to use stratus at this time complained. So stratus is using p2p, but it still rely on Adobe servers and as far as I know there is no way to deploy your own stratus server yet.
- ilike 16y ago
  Chatroulette uses Stratus and RTMP. RTMP, when Stratus fails because of firewall restrictions.
ryoshu 16y ago
Stratus has been around for over a year on Adobe Labs. P2P video and audio was introduced in Flash Player 10. FP 10.1 introduces multi-cast P2P and the ability to send arbitrary data over the P2P connection.
- braindead_in 16y ago
  How long till someone comes up with a Skype clone on flash?
  - ryoshu 16y ago
    There were a number of us that built a Skype clone right after the initial Stratus release. Video/audio/text chat works pretty well over P2P, but you still need a centralized server for the initial connection (Stratus) and a way to get around firewalls (STUN/TURN).
    - braindead_in 16y ago
      Awesome. What happened to it?
hackermom 16y ago
"Eliminate bandwidth costs" sounds like your ordinary, exaggerated, sensationalistic marketing trick - just air. I also wonder how this will fare in the US and the UK, where internet infrastructure on the upstream side of things is more or less non-existant.
DanBlake 16y ago
Stratus is non commercial. If you want to use p2p for a commercial project (show ads/charge for something), you need to pay adobe based on the minutes of usage (Seriously). Its called adobe lifecycle afaicr.
- ilike 16y ago
  Omegle and chatroulette, both use Adobe Stratus . Both sites depend on advertising revenue. I dont think Adobe actively bans commercial projects/products from using Straus. Stratus is in beta, and Adobe doesnt provide any official support. So if you want to run a business that uses RTMFP with Adobe support, then LCCS (LiveCycle Collaboration Services) is the way to go.
  - ryoshu 16y ago
    And Flash Media Server 4 will have RTMFP when it is released. red5 should offer support soon after that.
gvb 16y ago
"...enable publishers to dramatically reduce bandwidth costs by outsourcing media distribution to users." That is a very bad title. All it does is shift the bandwidth costs from the publishers to the users. BBC tried to do this and caused problems for their users. BBC was surprised by the problems they caused, everybody technical said "we told you so."

38 points by ukdm 16y ago

If this delivers on its promise, couldn't it preserve Flash as a standard for video delivery online? Cutting bandwidth costs for video websites could be a significant incentive to slow down HTML5 adoption and keep Flash in the game a little while longer.

someone_here 16y ago
Unless HTML5 comes up with a UDP websocket protocol :D That could be fun, but also possibly a huge security concern.
- powrtoch 16y ago
  Given Flash's record, isn't their implementation already a security concern?
- est 16y ago
  > Unless HTML5 comes up with a UDP websocket protocol :D And passive mode for WebSocket. And NAT traversal, and a central coordinate server, and fuck it, let's just use Flash.
dirkstoop 16y ago
It all really depends on the implementation. None of the big players will want tech that doesn't give them enough control over minimum bandwidth/streaming performance. For small players, putting some h264/ogg files up on Amazon cloudfront may cost some money, but it's extremely easy to set up right and offers extremely good and consistent performance for the money. P2P doesn't add much for distributors that don't get massive amounts of viewers. Not saying it can't be a game changer somehow; a similar P2P strategy worked out pretty well for Skype. But given that it's all talk right now, I don't think it'll do much to slow down HTML5 adoption for a while.

billybob 16y ago

I'm not a huge fan of flash, but I do think peer-to-peer is a great way for the web to grow. Anything legitimate - making it harder for ISPs to say "it's only for pirates" and throttle it - is welcome in my book.

someone_here 16y ago
Deep packet inspection is already way ahead of simple protocol blocking.
- jrockway 16y ago
  But, of course, it's easy to make your P2P packets look like anything you want, so deep packet inspection is just a way to waste electricity.
ErrantX 16y ago
Actually, as someone who used to help run a mico-ISP, the problem with P2P for ISP's has little to do with piracy. The major problem is it can absolutely rape networks - and it only takes one or two abusers to clog it up for everyone else. In the end we simply kicked anyone who consistently ate up bandwidth with P2P - and network reliability improved no end.
- boredguy8 16y ago
  Help me understand this. Did you not have bandwidth caps? I understand how 'one or two abusers' could clog up a network at, say, a university where there might not be per-port or per-device limits on bandwidth. But I pay my $40/mo. for 10 down 1 up, and I never get more than that. How does, say, seeding WoW updates 'clog it up for everyone else'?
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    P2P is a deliberately greedy process - you are consistently opening a large number of connections (as opposed to a single high volume connection). One of the big issues with P2P is not the downloads per-se but the discovery process - that can seriously hammer the network (imagine how you stress test a server!) Also; it's entirely infeasible to offer a service as you describe - partly because networks just don't work like that (this answers the other commenter too). ADSL is a shared line; what other people are doing can adversely impact you regardless of the networks theoretical capability.

lukeqsee 16y ago

I wonder how many people will just "click yes" and end up not being able to watch video anymore. In the US of A, there are quite a few connections that are too slow on the upload side to handle P2P while streaming video. The idea is worthy, but it needs masterful implementation. It takes a lot to balance the upload/download speeds. I am thankful it will be a opt-in. I just hope they throughly explain it to users before they click "yes."

someone_here 16y ago

It's been coming for over a year: http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/stratus/ http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/stratus/

est 16y ago
I think it's refreshing because it will soon support intranet p2p, both live and on-demand. On-demand p2p is easier than live p2p.

not_an_alien 16y ago

More information http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/stratus/ http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/stratus/

eli 16y ago

The beta of this technology is what powers chatroulette, right?

someone_here 16y ago
Probably not. To enable this P2P, the user must accept a separate dialog window asking their permission.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- anto1ne 16y ago
  chatroulette uses stratus, or at least used it. When it became famous, it completely killed stratus server which was still in beta and not ready for massive usage. Everyone who happens to use stratus at this time complained. So stratus is using p2p, but it still rely on Adobe servers and as far as I know there is no way to deploy your own stratus server yet.
ilike 16y ago
Chatroulette uses Stratus and RTMP. RTMP, when Stratus fails because of firewall restrictions.

ryoshu 16y ago

Stratus has been around for over a year on Adobe Labs. P2P video and audio was introduced in Flash Player 10. FP 10.1 introduces multi-cast P2P and the ability to send arbitrary data over the P2P connection.

braindead_in 16y ago
How long till someone comes up with a Skype clone on flash?
- ryoshu 16y ago
  There were a number of us that built a Skype clone right after the initial Stratus release. Video/audio/text chat works pretty well over P2P, but you still need a centralized server for the initial connection (Stratus) and a way to get around firewalls (STUN/TURN).
  - braindead_in 16y ago
    Awesome. What happened to it?

hackermom 16y ago

"Eliminate bandwidth costs" sounds like your ordinary, exaggerated, sensationalistic marketing trick - just air. I also wonder how this will fare in the US and the UK, where internet infrastructure on the upstream side of things is more or less non-existant.

DanBlake 16y ago

Stratus is non commercial. If you want to use p2p for a commercial project (show ads/charge for something), you need to pay adobe based on the minutes of usage (Seriously). Its called adobe lifecycle afaicr.

ilike 16y ago
Omegle and chatroulette, both use Adobe Stratus . Both sites depend on advertising revenue. I dont think Adobe actively bans commercial projects/products from using Straus. Stratus is in beta, and Adobe doesnt provide any official support. So if you want to run a business that uses RTMFP with Adobe support, then LCCS (LiveCycle Collaboration Services) is the way to go.
- ryoshu 16y ago
  And Flash Media Server 4 will have RTMFP when it is released. red5 should offer support soon after that.

gvb 16y ago

"...enable publishers to dramatically reduce bandwidth costs by outsourcing media distribution to users." That is a very bad title. All it does is shift the bandwidth costs from the publishers to the users. BBC tried to do this and caused problems for their users. BBC was surprised by the problems they caused, everybody technical said "we told you so."