6 ms·

Ok I will take the bait - breathing, especially over the course of lets say ~45 minute run should definitely have some relation to the part of anatomy the artic

by divbit 10y ago

Ok I will take the bait - breathing, especially over the course of lets say ~45 minute run should definitely have some relation to the part of anatomy the article was talking about (specifically, the vets are claiming that the smashed nose shape makes it harder for them to breath, in relation to other dog breeds). Surely being able to breathe correctly is necessary to run for 45-50 minutes continuously? What I am claiming, with my anecdote, is that maybe exercise can help alleviate problems related to being out-of-breath (certainly it does for people!) Based on my anecdote, one might suspect that the vets conclusions do not hold true for 'all' pugs. Maybe their argument is statistical, based on an analysis of a large number of pugs. Personally, I have seen many more out-of-shape pugs than in-shape pugs. On the other hand, maybe they are specifically arguing against very inbred variations, in which case, they are making a point against very in bred variations, and not pugs in general.

Nursie 10y ago
They're arguing that you shouldn't buy a pug as at the moment because a large proportion of the population of pugs will suffer terrible health problems That you had a single individual that you believe did not suffer from the issues related to extreme brachycephaly doesn't really tell us much. The problems are only partly related to inbreeding - selecting for dogs with such squashed heads is bad in and of itself.
- Raphmedia 10y ago
  So get the ones that are fit like the one in the anecdote and breed them? This entire thread is such a non-issue.
  - Nursie 10y ago
    That's not happening, breeders are breeding dogs that uave all sorts of problems and people are buying them in droves. That's the issue!
    - Raphmedia 10y ago
      Is it really an issue? As long as the animal is happy, I don't see the problem of a shorter lifespan. You can simply (and sadly) have it put down in an humane way once it starts to get health issues. Plenty of pets don't make it past 8 years.
- divbit 10y ago
  What I am trying to point out is that it should be impossible to enjoy prolonged daily aerobic exercise under the constant respiratory distress the article is claiming for 'all such brachycephalic dogs.' Let me quote directly from the article: "The only time these dogs are not in some degree of respiratory distress is when you have them intubated under anaesthetic." What I am claiming, as a proof by contradiction of sorts, is that with proper exercise, it is possible that such a dog will not suffer from respiratory distress all the time, like the article is clearly claiming.
  - Nursie 10y ago
    Firstly, are you qualified to know if your dog was not in "some" degree of respiratory distress? And again, your dog might have been ok. Hell, you might have got a classical pug with a longer snout and few issues. The problem is that there are vast numbers being bred and sold that do suffer from these problems, and no amount of exercise is going to help them. This is a solvable problem, if people stop selecting for dogs with collapsed faces.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      Responsible owners of pure bred dogs discuss these issues with their veterinarians. We own a rescue mutt and a brachycephalic purebred, and had this discussion with our vet. You're a commenter on a message board projecting authority from a few sentences from an advocacy piece in The Guardian. I concede that the ethics of purebred ownership remain a live debate after this comment, but hopefully we can eliminate right now the notion you have that you can club down other commenters with the question "are you a vet?".
      - Nursie 10y ago
        And responsible vets and veterinary associations are now starting to publicly say that there are problems with these breeds. It's not even the ethics of purebred ownership in general - it's the ethics of selecting for known harmful traits, and people buying them in droves due to little more than fashion.
- tallanvor 10y ago
  Anyone looking to get a dog should do their research before getting a dog. I have a pug. I made the decision after doing a lot of research and finding a breeder that clearly understood the health issues that pugs face, and was able to explain what he and other breeders have been doing to improve the health of the breed, including what factors they look at when deciding which pugs are healthy enough to bear/sire a litter. My pug is getting close to 4 years old now. She did have to have surgery to remove some skin and to change the shape of her lower eyelids because hair would rub against the eyes, which caused pigment to be pushed up. It's still a common problem with pugs, and breeders know it. The worst case scenario for my pug at this point is that I'll need to put an ointment containing ciclosporin in her eyes daily for the rest of her life. Beyond that, her vet is extremely happy with her health and doesn't expect her to have any of the common health issues pugs face. Yes, I have to be careful about letting her get overheated when it's hot out, but other than that, she has no breathing issues. I watch her weight carefully since pugs are greedy little things. Many people think a pug is supposed to be fat, so a 6.3kg female pug looks very skinny to them. There are still plenty of unscrupulous breeders who don't care about the health of pugs, but spending time to make sure you aren't getting a pug from one of them will put them out of business, and leave the breeders who are doing a good job restoring the health of the breed.

by divbit 10y ago

Nursie 10y ago

They're arguing that you shouldn't buy a pug as at the moment because a large proportion of the population of pugs will suffer terrible health problems That you had a single individual that you believe did not suffer from the issues related to extreme brachycephaly doesn't really tell us much. The problems are only partly related to inbreeding - selecting for dogs with such squashed heads is bad in and of itself.

Raphmedia 10y ago
So get the ones that are fit like the one in the anecdote and breed them? This entire thread is such a non-issue.
- Nursie 10y ago
  That's not happening, breeders are breeding dogs that uave all sorts of problems and people are buying them in droves. That's the issue!
  - Raphmedia 10y ago
    Is it really an issue? As long as the animal is happy, I don't see the problem of a shorter lifespan. You can simply (and sadly) have it put down in an humane way once it starts to get health issues. Plenty of pets don't make it past 8 years.
divbit 10y ago
What I am trying to point out is that it should be impossible to enjoy prolonged daily aerobic exercise under the constant respiratory distress the article is claiming for 'all such brachycephalic dogs.' Let me quote directly from the article: "The only time these dogs are not in some degree of respiratory distress is when you have them intubated under anaesthetic." What I am claiming, as a proof by contradiction of sorts, is that with proper exercise, it is possible that such a dog will not suffer from respiratory distress all the time, like the article is clearly claiming.
- Nursie 10y ago
  Firstly, are you qualified to know if your dog was not in "some" degree of respiratory distress? And again, your dog might have been ok. Hell, you might have got a classical pug with a longer snout and few issues. The problem is that there are vast numbers being bred and sold that do suffer from these problems, and no amount of exercise is going to help them. This is a solvable problem, if people stop selecting for dogs with collapsed faces.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    Responsible owners of pure bred dogs discuss these issues with their veterinarians. We own a rescue mutt and a brachycephalic purebred, and had this discussion with our vet. You're a commenter on a message board projecting authority from a few sentences from an advocacy piece in The Guardian. I concede that the ethics of purebred ownership remain a live debate after this comment, but hopefully we can eliminate right now the notion you have that you can club down other commenters with the question "are you a vet?".
    - Nursie 10y ago
      And responsible vets and veterinary associations are now starting to publicly say that there are problems with these breeds. It's not even the ethics of purebred ownership in general - it's the ethics of selecting for known harmful traits, and people buying them in droves due to little more than fashion.
tallanvor 10y ago
Anyone looking to get a dog should do their research before getting a dog. I have a pug. I made the decision after doing a lot of research and finding a breeder that clearly understood the health issues that pugs face, and was able to explain what he and other breeders have been doing to improve the health of the breed, including what factors they look at when deciding which pugs are healthy enough to bear/sire a litter. My pug is getting close to 4 years old now. She did have to have surgery to remove some skin and to change the shape of her lower eyelids because hair would rub against the eyes, which caused pigment to be pushed up. It's still a common problem with pugs, and breeders know it. The worst case scenario for my pug at this point is that I'll need to put an ointment containing ciclosporin in her eyes daily for the rest of her life. Beyond that, her vet is extremely happy with her health and doesn't expect her to have any of the common health issues pugs face. Yes, I have to be careful about letting her get overheated when it's hot out, but other than that, she has no breathing issues. I watch her weight carefully since pugs are greedy little things. Many people think a pug is supposed to be fat, so a 6.3kg female pug looks very skinny to them. There are still plenty of unscrupulous breeders who don't care about the health of pugs, but spending time to make sure you aren't getting a pug from one of them will put them out of business, and leave the breeders who are doing a good job restoring the health of the breed.