6 ms·

The article is misleading. I own two pugs, and it's a breed that must be kept fit and healthy. They can't be allowed to run hard in hot weather, and if it is ho

by milesf 10y ago

The article is misleading. I own two pugs, and it's a breed that must be kept fit and healthy. They can't be allowed to run hard in hot weather, and if it is hot they need a lot of water. The folds in their skin need to be kept clean as well. This is a very old breed, and the dogs do have a decent lifespan if they're cared for properly. I don't know about Bulldogs, but I've never owned one because they're only expected to live 6 - 8 years. I've owned many different breeds over the years, and it's true that mutts are generally better health wise. They also tend to have better temperaments. I have pugs because I love them, but I also think too many people get them just because they're cute. As a dog lover, it's going to be headlines like these that are going to get some well-needed discussion going. So on one hand I disagree with the thrust of the article that pugs are anatomical disasters, but on the other the whole 'purebred' arrogance needs to be taken down a few notches.

Nursie 10y ago
I think the problem is that with some breeds, a large proportion of the individuals will necessarily suffer from problems related to their deformed anatomy. Pugs are just one example of a breed where breed characteristics (brachycephaly in this case) have gone far enough that it can be argued that continued breeding of them is cruel, particularly f continuing to select for extreme breed characteristics.
- milesf 10y ago
  Oh stop! Breeding them is cruel? Let's have a rational discussion without trying to lay a guilt-trip.
  - Nursie 10y ago
    Yes, cruel, deliberately bringing dogs into the world that are likely to suffer pain and discomfort throughout their lives due to their extreme deformities. What other word are you going to use?
    - milesf 10y ago
      Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But pugs do not have to suffer pain and discomfort throughout their lives _if_ the owners are responsible. Many aren't, and sadly those dogs are going to experience pain and discomfort.
      - Nursie 10y ago
        Wrong - many pugs and other breeds are anatomically disastrous, and will suffer throughout their lives regardless of their owners. That's the whole point of the article.
        tptacek 10y ago
        Since nobody is obligated to care for a dog of any sort, the bar is somewhat high for the claim that owning breeds with genetic defects is unethical. If you can support with evidence the claim that no matter how carefully the dog is kept, its existence will be defined by suffering that overwhelms all the benefits to its existence, then you've made a powerful argument against those breeds. Otherwise, you probably haven't.
        Nursie 10y ago
        Nobody is obligated to create a creature that will suffer for its entire life either. I'm not sure one needs to prove that its existence will be defined by suffering that overwhelms all the benefits to its existence - merely that a sufficient amount of suffering is likely, and the benefits are equally obtainable from a dog without these problems. It is unethical to bring into existence a dog that will suffer pain every day of its shortened life, even if it is a happy dog and brings joy to ita owners, if the alternative is to bring one into existence with a slightly less deformed head that does not suffer so.
        tptacek 10y ago
        We own a rescue and a brachy purebred. We acquired the brachy dog due to the temperament and exercise requirements of the particular breed. Had our only option been to acquire a mixed-breed dog with typical dog exercise and attention requirements, our choice would almost certainly have been to acquire no new dog at all. I am having trouble making your argument cohere. I can't tell whether you think our brachy dog should be put down immediately to end its suffering, or not. If not, I can't understand how you could arrive at the conclusion that providing the best possible life for a genetically compromised pet is worse than providing no life at all for any pet.
mulletbum 10y ago
Your dog can't run in hot weather? Doesn't that concern you when there are millions of working dogs that are at the same fitness level, but wont die in hot weather? I feel as though you justified the entire article in your second sentence?
- milesf 10y ago
  Every responsible pug owns knows you should not run pugs _hard_ in hot weather. It can lead to organ damage. Pugs are not working dogs, they are companion dogs.
  - Nursie 10y ago
    Because the poor beasts overheat and can't breathe properly! Part of the point of the article...
    - tptacek 10y ago
      I think he understands the article, and that you're not following his point. He's saying: yes, due to genetic defects in the breed, his dogs can't run in hot weather. Solution: don't have the dogs run in hot weather.
      - Nursie 10y ago
        Alternate solution - don't breed dogs with extreme anatomical features that mean if they get overexcited in hot weather they can suffer organ damage.
        tptacek 10y ago
        You're begging the question. I think I can speak for the entire thread when I say we all agree that one downside of the pug breed is that their genetic defects prevent them from performing in hot weather. My question to you is: so what? Surely we all agree that it would be cruel to buy a pug and then put it into circumstances that exacerbate its defects. But the person you're arguing with is a responsible pug owner, and is careful not to subject their dog to those conditions. So: why am I meant to care about whether that dog can run in the heat?
JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
Are you implying you know more about it than a veterinarian and an organization of veterinarians?
- milesf 10y ago
  Do you believe that the article is 100% correct and speaks for all veterinarians on the planet?
  - JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
    It speaks for the British veterinarians, yes, that's what that group does.
    - milesf 10y ago
      I'm not British, I'm Canadian, and my mom was a breeder of Pekingese. She never made money at it, she simply loved the breed. I have known many Canadian vets, and have been around dogs my whole life. So I can speak to this issue with a degree of informed opinion that is higher than some others. All of these concerns about brachys breeds has been known for centuries - yes, literally hundreds of years. Pugs and Pekes are very old breeds, are cherished by most owners I know, and in fact used to only be owned by wealthy families. But now that they are popular everywhere, the issue of these breeds being owned by people who are not fully aware of their limitations is an important discussion. I can see veterinarians being concerned about general trends of a populace not giving due care (concerned only about the fact that they're "cute"), but to say that these breeds are doomed to suffer their entire life in the hands of a responsible owner is a point of view I believe to be incorrect. Anything that can help the well being of canines I'm in favor of. Dogs truly are man's best friend. I'm even willing to endure some scorn and tolerate the occasional sensational article, because I don't think just anyone ought to own a dog. My pugs Bailey and Maya are not just pets, they're family to us. But to accuse me of being cruel because I want these breeds to continue as they have for centuries? No. I don't buy it. You and the British vet society have not convinced me. Go scorn others who breed dogs to fight to the death or those that eat them. I feel no guilt or shame whatsoever. I love pugs, and I hope to have many more in my life, maybe even be a breeder myself someday.
DanBC 10y ago
> and it's a breed that must be kept fit and healthy. Are you saying that human intervention is needed to overcome the genetic flaws created by weird breeding? Your comment persuades me that the article is right, and not that the article is misleading.
- pacaro 10y ago
  Independent of this fork of discussion, all pet dogs would benefit from being kept fit and at an appropriate weight (a good proxy for healthy) As a dog owner I take this as part of my responsibility towards my dog. I control both his opportunity for exercise, and his diet.
- milesf 10y ago
  There are many dog breeds out there, and some have been bred strictly as companion pets for human beings. So yeah, human intervention is needed to overcome the genetic flaws brought about by the desire to maintain certain genetic traits. Being that I'm of two minds on this subject, I think it's reasonable for people to take a side here. I still think the article is a bit misleading, but it is accomplishing something important: discussion.
criddell 10y ago
One of the dogs I have right now is a pug and it is by far the best dog I have ever had. I wish I could reliably get pug personality and behavior in a mutt. For me, one of the benefits of getting a dog of a specific breed is that it's a known quantity.
- milesf 10y ago
  Yep, you're correct that purebreds have a more predictable pattern of temperament and known health challenges (all dogs have problems. Some have more problems than others). Pugs are very smart, and can be difficult to train unless it's done at an early age. Unfortunately (okay, not really :) our two pugs are so stubborn, they often decide "no, I'm not going to listen to you". I've owned pugs, pekingese, airdales, yorkshire terriers, a cocker spaniel, and a variety of mutts. Pugs are definitely my favourite. We have an informal pug owners club that meet every week at a local dog park. Most of the owners there are responsible owners, and love these little guys as much as I love mine. It's cool here in British Columbia, so the hot weather problem with pugs isn't as big of an issue. We have been considering moving to the Caribbean, but it's very hot down there. We would either have to leave them behind, or they would have to be indoors most of the time. We love these guys too much to just up-and-leave them, and we don't want to keep them enclosed like prisoners, so we are likely going to wait until they pass away before we move.
  - criddell 10y ago
    I wouldn't describe my pug as smart... but he's very, very happy. I live in central Texas, so we have to deal with very hot weather. Dogs do get acclimatized to some degree, but we have to wait until the sun goes down to walk him. Even if he could deal with the hot air during the day, the temperature of the sidewalk and roads would burn a pug's feet.

by milesf 10y ago

Nursie 10y ago

I think the problem is that with some breeds, a large proportion of the individuals will necessarily suffer from problems related to their deformed anatomy. Pugs are just one example of a breed where breed characteristics (brachycephaly in this case) have gone far enough that it can be argued that continued breeding of them is cruel, particularly f continuing to select for extreme breed characteristics.

milesf 10y ago
Oh stop! Breeding them is cruel? Let's have a rational discussion without trying to lay a guilt-trip.
- Nursie 10y ago
  Yes, cruel, deliberately bringing dogs into the world that are likely to suffer pain and discomfort throughout their lives due to their extreme deformities. What other word are you going to use?
  - milesf 10y ago
    Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But pugs do not have to suffer pain and discomfort throughout their lives _if_ the owners are responsible. Many aren't, and sadly those dogs are going to experience pain and discomfort.
    - Nursie 10y ago
      Wrong - many pugs and other breeds are anatomically disastrous, and will suffer throughout their lives regardless of their owners. That's the whole point of the article.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        Since nobody is obligated to care for a dog of any sort, the bar is somewhat high for the claim that owning breeds with genetic defects is unethical. If you can support with evidence the claim that no matter how carefully the dog is kept, its existence will be defined by suffering that overwhelms all the benefits to its existence, then you've made a powerful argument against those breeds. Otherwise, you probably haven't.
        Nursie 10y ago
        Nobody is obligated to create a creature that will suffer for its entire life either. I'm not sure one needs to prove that its existence will be defined by suffering that overwhelms all the benefits to its existence - merely that a sufficient amount of suffering is likely, and the benefits are equally obtainable from a dog without these problems. It is unethical to bring into existence a dog that will suffer pain every day of its shortened life, even if it is a happy dog and brings joy to ita owners, if the alternative is to bring one into existence with a slightly less deformed head that does not suffer so.
        tptacek 10y ago
        We own a rescue and a brachy purebred. We acquired the brachy dog due to the temperament and exercise requirements of the particular breed. Had our only option been to acquire a mixed-breed dog with typical dog exercise and attention requirements, our choice would almost certainly have been to acquire no new dog at all. I am having trouble making your argument cohere. I can't tell whether you think our brachy dog should be put down immediately to end its suffering, or not. If not, I can't understand how you could arrive at the conclusion that providing the best possible life for a genetically compromised pet is worse than providing no life at all for any pet.

mulletbum 10y ago

Your dog can't run in hot weather? Doesn't that concern you when there are millions of working dogs that are at the same fitness level, but wont die in hot weather? I feel as though you justified the entire article in your second sentence?

milesf 10y ago
Every responsible pug owns knows you should not run pugs _hard_ in hot weather. It can lead to organ damage. Pugs are not working dogs, they are companion dogs.
- Nursie 10y ago
  Because the poor beasts overheat and can't breathe properly! Part of the point of the article...
  - tptacek 10y ago
    I think he understands the article, and that you're not following his point. He's saying: yes, due to genetic defects in the breed, his dogs can't run in hot weather. Solution: don't have the dogs run in hot weather.
    - Nursie 10y ago
      Alternate solution - don't breed dogs with extreme anatomical features that mean if they get overexcited in hot weather they can suffer organ damage.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        You're begging the question. I think I can speak for the entire thread when I say we all agree that one downside of the pug breed is that their genetic defects prevent them from performing in hot weather. My question to you is: so what? Surely we all agree that it would be cruel to buy a pug and then put it into circumstances that exacerbate its defects. But the person you're arguing with is a responsible pug owner, and is careful not to subject their dog to those conditions. So: why am I meant to care about whether that dog can run in the heat?

JohnJamesRambo 10y ago

Are you implying you know more about it than a veterinarian and an organization of veterinarians?

milesf 10y ago
Do you believe that the article is 100% correct and speaks for all veterinarians on the planet?
- JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
  It speaks for the British veterinarians, yes, that's what that group does.
  - milesf 10y ago
    I'm not British, I'm Canadian, and my mom was a breeder of Pekingese. She never made money at it, she simply loved the breed. I have known many Canadian vets, and have been around dogs my whole life. So I can speak to this issue with a degree of informed opinion that is higher than some others. All of these concerns about brachys breeds has been known for centuries - yes, literally hundreds of years. Pugs and Pekes are very old breeds, are cherished by most owners I know, and in fact used to only be owned by wealthy families. But now that they are popular everywhere, the issue of these breeds being owned by people who are not fully aware of their limitations is an important discussion. I can see veterinarians being concerned about general trends of a populace not giving due care (concerned only about the fact that they're "cute"), but to say that these breeds are doomed to suffer their entire life in the hands of a responsible owner is a point of view I believe to be incorrect. Anything that can help the well being of canines I'm in favor of. Dogs truly are man's best friend. I'm even willing to endure some scorn and tolerate the occasional sensational article, because I don't think just anyone ought to own a dog. My pugs Bailey and Maya are not just pets, they're family to us. But to accuse me of being cruel because I want these breeds to continue as they have for centuries? No. I don't buy it. You and the British vet society have not convinced me. Go scorn others who breed dogs to fight to the death or those that eat them. I feel no guilt or shame whatsoever. I love pugs, and I hope to have many more in my life, maybe even be a breeder myself someday.

DanBC 10y ago

> and it's a breed that must be kept fit and healthy. Are you saying that human intervention is needed to overcome the genetic flaws created by weird breeding? Your comment persuades me that the article is right, and not that the article is misleading.

pacaro 10y ago
Independent of this fork of discussion, all pet dogs would benefit from being kept fit and at an appropriate weight (a good proxy for healthy) As a dog owner I take this as part of my responsibility towards my dog. I control both his opportunity for exercise, and his diet.
milesf 10y ago
There are many dog breeds out there, and some have been bred strictly as companion pets for human beings. So yeah, human intervention is needed to overcome the genetic flaws brought about by the desire to maintain certain genetic traits. Being that I'm of two minds on this subject, I think it's reasonable for people to take a side here. I still think the article is a bit misleading, but it is accomplishing something important: discussion.

criddell 10y ago

One of the dogs I have right now is a pug and it is by far the best dog I have ever had. I wish I could reliably get pug personality and behavior in a mutt. For me, one of the benefits of getting a dog of a specific breed is that it's a known quantity.

milesf 10y ago
Yep, you're correct that purebreds have a more predictable pattern of temperament and known health challenges (all dogs have problems. Some have more problems than others). Pugs are very smart, and can be difficult to train unless it's done at an early age. Unfortunately (okay, not really :) our two pugs are so stubborn, they often decide "no, I'm not going to listen to you". I've owned pugs, pekingese, airdales, yorkshire terriers, a cocker spaniel, and a variety of mutts. Pugs are definitely my favourite. We have an informal pug owners club that meet every week at a local dog park. Most of the owners there are responsible owners, and love these little guys as much as I love mine. It's cool here in British Columbia, so the hot weather problem with pugs isn't as big of an issue. We have been considering moving to the Caribbean, but it's very hot down there. We would either have to leave them behind, or they would have to be indoors most of the time. We love these guys too much to just up-and-leave them, and we don't want to keep them enclosed like prisoners, so we are likely going to wait until they pass away before we move.
- criddell 10y ago
  I wouldn't describe my pug as smart... but he's very, very happy. I live in central Texas, so we have to deal with very hot weather. Dogs do get acclimatized to some degree, but we have to wait until the sun goes down to walk him. Even if he could deal with the hot air during the day, the temperature of the sidewalk and roads would burn a pug's feet.