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I find this fascinating and troubling. From a hacker perspective it is incredible. On the other hand, this is all driven by a profoundly illiberal government t

I find this fascinating and troubling. From a hacker perspective it is incredible. On the other hand, this is all driven by a profoundly illiberal government that has no goals other than its own survival and that's supported by a lot of human misery, some might say slavery. I love using Apple products but it's hard to forget the conditions at places like Foxconn. Both sides think they are outflanking the other - the West hopes this development will liberalize China and increase respect for IP and rule of law while the Chinese government intends to use this interaction, trade, and adoption of tech to increase their own power. It's a very risky game. It's easy to criticize the US government (and for obvious reasons - this is not a defense of US foreign policy) but Chinese hegemony might be far worse. As techies how can we create places like this in other more open countries? Can this kind of development not be done locally or in Latin America countries? Please understand this is not an attack on China, just some (I think) realistic concerns about their government.

yadongwen 10y ago
No, you are not attacking, but you really do not understand. Let me ask you a question. If Apple is assembling the iPhones in India, do you think the work condition is much better than that of Foxconn? And do you know that Foxconn is a Taiwanese company? Yes the Chinese government has their goals. They are corrupted and they do not care much about people. But, it's great they can offer great jobs to farmers assembling iPhones. Even though the work condition is so bad according to your standard.
- aaron-lebo 10y ago
  If Apple is assembling the iPhones in India, do you think the work condition is much better than that of Foxconn? Probably not, but we can't really know this, and at least having a democratic government in theory provides some leverage. My argument is that paying incredibly low prices for technology has human costs and perhaps is not sustainable. But, it's great they can offer great jobs to farmers assembling iPhones. That's assuming farmers are happier on factory lines than they are working on their farms. Is there evidence to support this? Of course we can't and shouldn't keep China agrarian but Western consumerism is subsidizing some ugly stuff that wouldn't be possible without it. China does not compete on an even playing field with many other countries because of poverty yes but also because its government is interested in development at all costs. And yes, the West developed the same way but it doesn't mean it's ethical.
RichardHeart 10y ago
How do you think the conditions would be without Foxconn? I don't think the West could get a better deal from China than they are already getting. If the Chinese got their act totally together, wouldn't your Iphone get a lot more expensive? I don't think the west really wants to liberalize its trading partners as much as you think they do.
Nokinside 10y ago
>profoundly illiberal government that has no goals other than its own survival and that's supported by a lot of human misery, This is common misconception. China is authoritarian country but it's not a totalitarian dictatorship. Chinese government actually has problems of controlling it's population and people are not afraid to show their displeasure with protest and riots when things are wrong. Politically modern China is very much like United Kingdom before universal suffrage. Communist party (60 million members) is very much like the noble class in UK. This upper class is full aware that they can't rule with iron fist. They have to deliver better conditions for people and manage industrialization and urbanization or their days are numbered. They have also tied their existence to Chinese (= Han) unity and nationalism (dangerously so, Taiwan is existential question for the communist party). Economically modern China is very much like UK during industrialization. People in China are more at the mercy of crony capitalism and smog than the government. Hopefully China will go trough similar set of gradual reforms. Maybe communists end up in the Chinese House of Lords where communist party still has little power. ---- >it's hard to forget the conditions at places like Foxconn. People in the developing world move to cities to escape malnutrition. They are not forced to work in Foxconn, they choose to work in Foxconn in exchange of enough nutrition. If you want to see bad conditions, visit rural China and India where people still suffer from malnutrition. Malnutrition in China has dropped dramatically, thanks for hose horrible factory jobs. India has it much worse.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  exactly there are something like 13000 large riots in China a year.
- yore129 10y ago
  > They are not forced to work in Foxconn, they choose to work in Foxconn in exchange of enough nutrition. That's totally untrue. People who come from the country side can't change jobs like that, they need some kind of permit to change jobs and sometimes they are actually forced to work somewhere. The job market in China is clearly biased against the worker, there is no real freedom of work for a large amount of people in China. And you're not even talking about all the corruption going that make sure these people keep getting exploited and forced to work in these places. > China is authoritarian country but it's not a totalitarian dictatorship By all standards it is a dictatorship, with re-education camps, no freedom of speech, a secret police and summary executions. Just because they are capitalists doesn't change that. The fact is, in the west we don't care, provided we have our slaves that build cheap stuffs. We basically outsourced slavery and accepted it thanks to an effective PR and the corruption of our own governments. Things were different 10/15 years ago, back then, China had a different reputation.

yadongwen 10y ago

No, you are not attacking, but you really do not understand. Let me ask you a question. If Apple is assembling the iPhones in India, do you think the work condition is much better than that of Foxconn? And do you know that Foxconn is a Taiwanese company? Yes the Chinese government has their goals. They are corrupted and they do not care much about people. But, it's great they can offer great jobs to farmers assembling iPhones. Even though the work condition is so bad according to your standard.

aaron-lebo 10y ago
If Apple is assembling the iPhones in India, do you think the work condition is much better than that of Foxconn? Probably not, but we can't really know this, and at least having a democratic government in theory provides some leverage. My argument is that paying incredibly low prices for technology has human costs and perhaps is not sustainable. But, it's great they can offer great jobs to farmers assembling iPhones. That's assuming farmers are happier on factory lines than they are working on their farms. Is there evidence to support this? Of course we can't and shouldn't keep China agrarian but Western consumerism is subsidizing some ugly stuff that wouldn't be possible without it. China does not compete on an even playing field with many other countries because of poverty yes but also because its government is interested in development at all costs. And yes, the West developed the same way but it doesn't mean it's ethical.

RichardHeart 10y ago

How do you think the conditions would be without Foxconn? I don't think the West could get a better deal from China than they are already getting. If the Chinese got their act totally together, wouldn't your Iphone get a lot more expensive? I don't think the west really wants to liberalize its trading partners as much as you think they do.

Nokinside 10y ago

>profoundly illiberal government that has no goals other than its own survival and that's supported by a lot of human misery, This is common misconception. China is authoritarian country but it's not a totalitarian dictatorship. Chinese government actually has problems of controlling it's population and people are not afraid to show their displeasure with protest and riots when things are wrong. Politically modern China is very much like United Kingdom before universal suffrage. Communist party (60 million members) is very much like the noble class in UK. This upper class is full aware that they can't rule with iron fist. They have to deliver better conditions for people and manage industrialization and urbanization or their days are numbered. They have also tied their existence to Chinese (= Han) unity and nationalism (dangerously so, Taiwan is existential question for the communist party). Economically modern China is very much like UK during industrialization. People in China are more at the mercy of crony capitalism and smog than the government. Hopefully China will go trough similar set of gradual reforms. Maybe communists end up in the Chinese House of Lords where communist party still has little power. ---- >it's hard to forget the conditions at places like Foxconn. People in the developing world move to cities to escape malnutrition. They are not forced to work in Foxconn, they choose to work in Foxconn in exchange of enough nutrition. If you want to see bad conditions, visit rural China and India where people still suffer from malnutrition. Malnutrition in China has dropped dramatically, thanks for hose horrible factory jobs. India has it much worse.

ThomPete 10y ago
exactly there are something like 13000 large riots in China a year.
yore129 10y ago
> They are not forced to work in Foxconn, they choose to work in Foxconn in exchange of enough nutrition. That's totally untrue. People who come from the country side can't change jobs like that, they need some kind of permit to change jobs and sometimes they are actually forced to work somewhere. The job market in China is clearly biased against the worker, there is no real freedom of work for a large amount of people in China. And you're not even talking about all the corruption going that make sure these people keep getting exploited and forced to work in these places. > China is authoritarian country but it's not a totalitarian dictatorship By all standards it is a dictatorship, with re-education camps, no freedom of speech, a secret police and summary executions. Just because they are capitalists doesn't change that. The fact is, in the west we don't care, provided we have our slaves that build cheap stuffs. We basically outsourced slavery and accepted it thanks to an effective PR and the corruption of our own governments. Things were different 10/15 years ago, back then, China had a different reputation.