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As if under Obama there was no TSA. I am starting to really despise this "fake news" machines called mass media. They are trying to show that Trump is the Anti

As if under Obama there was no TSA. I am starting to really despise this "fake news" machines called mass media. They are trying to show that Trump is the Antichrist while they choose to forget how Obama has destroyed half of Middle East and setted up a police State through NSA, secret laws, secret courts, indiscriminate droning of innocent people. Hypocrites at its best, this is what the mass media have become. Oh right, Trump hasn't received the Nobel prize for peace!

throwayawnotime 10y ago
you write: "how Obama has destroyed half of Middle East and setted up a police State through NSA" Do you emember the 90's, 2000's?
vixen99 10y ago
Fake news? Watching CNN and BBC World you'd guess that most people are against Trump's ban. That's not quite what this survey shows for Europeans. https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-european... "Our results are striking and sobering ..."
- w0utert 10y ago
  I've seen Trump tweet that survey as well, goes to show how short-sighted and selective people are when it comes to judging information at its face value. The survey asked about limiting immigration from Islamic countries, not about a general travel ban for people from an arbitrary list of countries. Big difference. If the survey had asked about immigration in general (not just from some islamic countries), I expect the results would not have been much different. Yet by simply reframing the question slightly and the results could have been vastly different. It has been shown time and time again that by simply adding a subtext ('...except for people with a stable job, income and education', 'does that also apply to relatives of your friendly neighbor from Egypt who runs the islamic store at the corner') all of a sudden the majority isn't so certain what they think about immigration anymore. Last but not least this is after a slew of recent acts of terrorism and a general discontent of the population of many countries with their government, the EU, the economy, etc. It says more about the sentiment of angry/disappointed people, than about what they really think about immigration policy. I'm a little sad this is what people nowadays base their opinions on, and act on it when they vote. To me it seems the idea of democracy and asking people to choose their own government and policy is starting to fall apart by the stupidity and ignorance of people, and the ease by which they are played by feeding them half-truths and misinformation. It's scary to think about what this could lead to.
  - cancancan 10y ago
    The right wing sentiments have been on the rise long before the recent terrorist attacks. Anyone not living in an echo chamber could see it, you don't really need that survey. > To me it seems the idea of democracy and asking people to choose their own government and policy is starting to fall apart by the stupidity and ignorance of people... I would argue that this kind of reasoning is precisely why many people are turning to the right. Instead of allowing them to voice their concerns and trying to understand them even if you end up disagreeing with them, they are shunned and labeled as stupid, ignorant, racist, sexist, islamophobic, homophobic, etc. Just put anyone you disagree with in the basket of deplorables and call it a day. Job done, right? Well it isn't. And if Brexit and Trump are not strong enough signals, there will be more and stronger. This picture captures the sentiment quite well: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cw2Bx5bUcAAV2Of.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cw2Bx5bUcAAV2Of.jpg The longer the high-horsing continues the more the pendulum swings to the right and society becomes more divided and on a path to catastrophic collision. Unfortunately, no lessons have been learned so far. The arrogance continues, and so will the response to it.
    - w0utert 10y ago
      >> I would argue that this kind of reasoning is precisely why many people are turning to the right. Instead of allowing them to voice their concerns and trying to understand them even if you end up disagreeing with them, they are shunned and labeled as stupid, ignorant, racist, sexist, islamophobic, homophobic, etc It's one thing to be angry, disappointed or concerned because of real, valid reasons that affect you, and I'm not arguing people have no right or reason for them. If you translate those feelings to actions that are stupid, ignorant, racist, sexist, islamophobic, homophobic, etc, you deserve no sympathy from me though. You can label it 'high-horsing' or 'arrogance', but the fact of the matter is that innocent people living in islamic countries are not the reason there are no jobs in the midwest anymore, US jobs are disappearing mostly because of automation, not mexicans, coal mines are closing because better alternatives are getting cheaper, etc. I don't know what the solution is, but I do know what is not: caving in to the kinds of sentiments you describe as 'right-wing', pretending they are justified and acceptable. I live in Europe and I'm actually in favor of limiting immigration, because my feeling is that allowing unlimited immigration disrupts society and takes too big of a toll on our social security and welfare systems. I'm well aware our small country can not and should not try to solve all the worlds problems within our borders. There's nothing particularly 'right wing' or xenophobic about that. But to generalize that to a total immigration ban based on religion, or even more insane, a travel ban from some arbitrary selection of countries, makes no sense whatsoever.
p49k 10y ago
This is classic Whataboutism[1]. The startup community has been criticizing Obama on many of these issues for the past eight years as well. That Obama engaged in such activity doesn't suddenly mean that Trump's administration is justified, nor does it mean that things won't get much worse with Trump. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- fennecfoxen 10y ago
  Writing it off as "whataboutism" is a way to avoid uncomfortable lines of questioning, so I will make these questions explicit here: Why exactly did so many people magically become dead-set against all these government abuses on Jan 20, 2017, specifically? Are they really here to help the fight for $CAUSE, or are they exploiting the cause for petty power games? Can you really trust their judgement in the Fight Against Tyranny? Can you trust them to push for durable reform against tyranny, or are they merely interested in install their own tyrant?
  - mugsie 10y ago
    > Why exactly did so many people magically become dead-set against all these government abuses on Jan 20, 2017, specifically? maybe because in the very first press conference, the press secretary lied, blatantly, and acted like it was no big deal. > Can you really trust their judgement in the Fight Against Tyranny? "Fight Against Tyranny" just out of interest - what tyranny is that?
  - p49k 10y ago
    Writing it off as "whataboutism" is a way to avoid uncomfortable lines of questioning No it's not, it's to point out a clear logical fallacy in OP's post. Why exactly did so many people magically become dead-set against all these government abuses on Jan 20, 2017, specifically? They didn't; this is false. The same people who are angry at specific abuses after Jan 20 were also angry before. See the thousands of articles posted on HN about these issues over the past eight years. This is also true from major news sources - even the liberal ones haven't failed to criticize Obama over these issues. That having been said, it should be expected that a president who is more severe in abusing his power would provoke more anger. It's not black and white. Are they really here to help the fight for $CAUSE, or are they exploiting the cause for petty power games? For the rest of your post, can you explain what you mean by "they", by "the fight for $CAUSE" and the "Fight Against Tyranny"? Also, can you give specific examples? This is too ambiguous to respond to.

throwayawnotime 10y ago

you write: "how Obama has destroyed half of Middle East and setted up a police State through NSA" Do you emember the 90's, 2000's?

vixen99 10y ago

Fake news? Watching CNN and BBC World you'd guess that most people are against Trump's ban. That's not quite what this survey shows for Europeans. https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-european... "Our results are striking and sobering ..."

w0utert 10y ago
I've seen Trump tweet that survey as well, goes to show how short-sighted and selective people are when it comes to judging information at its face value. The survey asked about limiting immigration from Islamic countries, not about a general travel ban for people from an arbitrary list of countries. Big difference. If the survey had asked about immigration in general (not just from some islamic countries), I expect the results would not have been much different. Yet by simply reframing the question slightly and the results could have been vastly different. It has been shown time and time again that by simply adding a subtext ('...except for people with a stable job, income and education', 'does that also apply to relatives of your friendly neighbor from Egypt who runs the islamic store at the corner') all of a sudden the majority isn't so certain what they think about immigration anymore. Last but not least this is after a slew of recent acts of terrorism and a general discontent of the population of many countries with their government, the EU, the economy, etc. It says more about the sentiment of angry/disappointed people, than about what they really think about immigration policy. I'm a little sad this is what people nowadays base their opinions on, and act on it when they vote. To me it seems the idea of democracy and asking people to choose their own government and policy is starting to fall apart by the stupidity and ignorance of people, and the ease by which they are played by feeding them half-truths and misinformation. It's scary to think about what this could lead to.
- cancancan 10y ago
  The right wing sentiments have been on the rise long before the recent terrorist attacks. Anyone not living in an echo chamber could see it, you don't really need that survey. > To me it seems the idea of democracy and asking people to choose their own government and policy is starting to fall apart by the stupidity and ignorance of people... I would argue that this kind of reasoning is precisely why many people are turning to the right. Instead of allowing them to voice their concerns and trying to understand them even if you end up disagreeing with them, they are shunned and labeled as stupid, ignorant, racist, sexist, islamophobic, homophobic, etc. Just put anyone you disagree with in the basket of deplorables and call it a day. Job done, right? Well it isn't. And if Brexit and Trump are not strong enough signals, there will be more and stronger. This picture captures the sentiment quite well: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cw2Bx5bUcAAV2Of.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cw2Bx5bUcAAV2Of.jpg The longer the high-horsing continues the more the pendulum swings to the right and society becomes more divided and on a path to catastrophic collision. Unfortunately, no lessons have been learned so far. The arrogance continues, and so will the response to it.
  - w0utert 10y ago
    >> I would argue that this kind of reasoning is precisely why many people are turning to the right. Instead of allowing them to voice their concerns and trying to understand them even if you end up disagreeing with them, they are shunned and labeled as stupid, ignorant, racist, sexist, islamophobic, homophobic, etc It's one thing to be angry, disappointed or concerned because of real, valid reasons that affect you, and I'm not arguing people have no right or reason for them. If you translate those feelings to actions that are stupid, ignorant, racist, sexist, islamophobic, homophobic, etc, you deserve no sympathy from me though. You can label it 'high-horsing' or 'arrogance', but the fact of the matter is that innocent people living in islamic countries are not the reason there are no jobs in the midwest anymore, US jobs are disappearing mostly because of automation, not mexicans, coal mines are closing because better alternatives are getting cheaper, etc. I don't know what the solution is, but I do know what is not: caving in to the kinds of sentiments you describe as 'right-wing', pretending they are justified and acceptable. I live in Europe and I'm actually in favor of limiting immigration, because my feeling is that allowing unlimited immigration disrupts society and takes too big of a toll on our social security and welfare systems. I'm well aware our small country can not and should not try to solve all the worlds problems within our borders. There's nothing particularly 'right wing' or xenophobic about that. But to generalize that to a total immigration ban based on religion, or even more insane, a travel ban from some arbitrary selection of countries, makes no sense whatsoever.

p49k 10y ago

This is classic Whataboutism[1]. The startup community has been criticizing Obama on many of these issues for the past eight years as well. That Obama engaged in such activity doesn't suddenly mean that Trump's administration is justified, nor does it mean that things won't get much worse with Trump. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

fennecfoxen 10y ago
Writing it off as "whataboutism" is a way to avoid uncomfortable lines of questioning, so I will make these questions explicit here: Why exactly did so many people magically become dead-set against all these government abuses on Jan 20, 2017, specifically? Are they really here to help the fight for $CAUSE, or are they exploiting the cause for petty power games? Can you really trust their judgement in the Fight Against Tyranny? Can you trust them to push for durable reform against tyranny, or are they merely interested in install their own tyrant?
- mugsie 10y ago
  > Why exactly did so many people magically become dead-set against all these government abuses on Jan 20, 2017, specifically? maybe because in the very first press conference, the press secretary lied, blatantly, and acted like it was no big deal. > Can you really trust their judgement in the Fight Against Tyranny? "Fight Against Tyranny" just out of interest - what tyranny is that?
- p49k 10y ago
  Writing it off as "whataboutism" is a way to avoid uncomfortable lines of questioning No it's not, it's to point out a clear logical fallacy in OP's post. Why exactly did so many people magically become dead-set against all these government abuses on Jan 20, 2017, specifically? They didn't; this is false. The same people who are angry at specific abuses after Jan 20 were also angry before. See the thousands of articles posted on HN about these issues over the past eight years. This is also true from major news sources - even the liberal ones haven't failed to criticize Obama over these issues. That having been said, it should be expected that a president who is more severe in abusing his power would provoke more anger. It's not black and white. Are they really here to help the fight for $CAUSE, or are they exploiting the cause for petty power games? For the rest of your post, can you explain what you mean by "they", by "the fight for $CAUSE" and the "Fight Against Tyranny"? Also, can you give specific examples? This is too ambiguous to respond to.