5 ms·

?? Tesla Model 3 full cost of ownership, esp including tax incentives in CA (where factory is) literally is the cheapest car on the market.

Waterluvian 10y ago
I guess I'm jaded from my week spent there. It was a whole different world to me. One lady talked to me about how this is her second job today and that she can barely make it on time to today's safety training because of the bus schedules. The parking lot was an ocean of beat up cars. The perception I got was that nobody on the production floor would ever own these cars.
- snarf 10y ago
  I imagine there is a huge difference in the employee pool between their Fremont factory location and their Palo Alto office location. Of course, Tesla is not exactly known to pay even their engineers very well: http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/08/working-tesla-meaning-stress-relatively-low-pay/ http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/08/working-tesla-meaning-str...
- J-dawg 10y ago
  That just seems really sad. I've read that Tesla doesn't pay exceptionally well, expects people to work really long hours, and doesn't offer an employee discount because Elon doesn't believe in it. Despite all this I've always imagined it to be a great place to work because of the world-changing potential of the work. But the idea of all these people toiling away on an amazing product they can't even hope to own just seems incredibly depressing. I guess it's no different to all the people making iPhones in China, it just hits closer to home.
  - trome 10y ago
    Elon is a capitalist, through and through. Treating workers well isn't even on his list of priorities, similar to Amazon.
    - crusso 10y ago
      Musk created a company that gives around 15,000 workers a job. The company he created is not just a capitalist endeavor, but an attempt to start an environmental movement aimed at making electric cars viable in the world market. At multiple points during the company's early days, Musk put everything he had on the line; assuming huge levels of risk. Meanwhile, Tesla is not making a profit and one wrong move could destroy it - ending the jobs of thousands and an environmental movement in one fell swoop. Giving luxurious benefits to Tesla employees just isn't possible at this point. Your criticism that Musk is just a capitalist who doesn't care about his workers and treat them well seems completely unfair.
      - trome 10y ago
        Boo hoo, not treating your workers like shit isn't some impossible, gargantuan task. Working your engineers & labor 60+ hours a week makes for great sound bites, but significantly below average productivity. Combined with an employer that won't even take basic suggestions on improving workflow from their floor staff, Tesla obviously has a certain level of arrogance about how to build a car. Fuck the employees who actually do it day in and day out, they don't know shit according to Tesla.
  - ganley 10y ago
    Please. A shitty, low-paying, long-hour job with a great mission is still a shitty, low-paying, long-hour job.
hueving 10y ago
Tax deductions are worthless if you're already low income.
- ec109685 10y ago
  It isn't a deduction but a credit.
  - breser 10y ago
    But it's not a refundable credit. Which means you get whichever is the lowest of your tax liability or $7,500. Please note saying it's not refundable is term of art that does not mean what you might take it to mean. So let's walk through some examples. Let's say your total tax liability for a year is $10,000. You paid in $11,000 via Payroll and other taxes. Without the credit you'd be due a refund of $1,000. If you are eligible for a $7,500 credit because you bought a Tesla you'd be due a $8,500 refund. Let's say your tax liability for the year is $5,000. You've paid nothing in taxes for the year (probably because you knew you were buying the car and didn't need to). You bought a Tesla which makes you eligible for a $7,500 tax credit. You do not get anything refund from the IRS, but the $7,500 tax credit offsets your entire tax liability. So just because it's a credit doesn't mean the credit is effective for low income people. You have to have enough income to have a high enough tax liability to even get the full $7,500.
    - Quinner 10y ago
      Very few people with a tax liability of less than $7,500 would be buying a new Model 3.
      - hueving 10y ago
        This post is in response to someone saying "this is literally the cheapest car on the market", which is exactly what someone with that small of a liability would be looking for.
ganley 10y ago
I'd like to see that math. Highly skeptical.

Waterluvian 10y ago

I guess I'm jaded from my week spent there. It was a whole different world to me. One lady talked to me about how this is her second job today and that she can barely make it on time to today's safety training because of the bus schedules. The parking lot was an ocean of beat up cars. The perception I got was that nobody on the production floor would ever own these cars.

snarf 10y ago
I imagine there is a huge difference in the employee pool between their Fremont factory location and their Palo Alto office location. Of course, Tesla is not exactly known to pay even their engineers very well: http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/08/working-tesla-meaning-stress-relatively-low-pay/ http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/08/working-tesla-meaning-str...
J-dawg 10y ago
That just seems really sad. I've read that Tesla doesn't pay exceptionally well, expects people to work really long hours, and doesn't offer an employee discount because Elon doesn't believe in it. Despite all this I've always imagined it to be a great place to work because of the world-changing potential of the work. But the idea of all these people toiling away on an amazing product they can't even hope to own just seems incredibly depressing. I guess it's no different to all the people making iPhones in China, it just hits closer to home.
- trome 10y ago
  Elon is a capitalist, through and through. Treating workers well isn't even on his list of priorities, similar to Amazon.
  - crusso 10y ago
    Musk created a company that gives around 15,000 workers a job. The company he created is not just a capitalist endeavor, but an attempt to start an environmental movement aimed at making electric cars viable in the world market. At multiple points during the company's early days, Musk put everything he had on the line; assuming huge levels of risk. Meanwhile, Tesla is not making a profit and one wrong move could destroy it - ending the jobs of thousands and an environmental movement in one fell swoop. Giving luxurious benefits to Tesla employees just isn't possible at this point. Your criticism that Musk is just a capitalist who doesn't care about his workers and treat them well seems completely unfair.
    - trome 10y ago
      Boo hoo, not treating your workers like shit isn't some impossible, gargantuan task. Working your engineers & labor 60+ hours a week makes for great sound bites, but significantly below average productivity. Combined with an employer that won't even take basic suggestions on improving workflow from their floor staff, Tesla obviously has a certain level of arrogance about how to build a car. Fuck the employees who actually do it day in and day out, they don't know shit according to Tesla.
- ganley 10y ago
  Please. A shitty, low-paying, long-hour job with a great mission is still a shitty, low-paying, long-hour job.

hueving 10y ago

Tax deductions are worthless if you're already low income.

ec109685 10y ago
It isn't a deduction but a credit.
- breser 10y ago
  But it's not a refundable credit. Which means you get whichever is the lowest of your tax liability or $7,500. Please note saying it's not refundable is term of art that does not mean what you might take it to mean. So let's walk through some examples. Let's say your total tax liability for a year is $10,000. You paid in $11,000 via Payroll and other taxes. Without the credit you'd be due a refund of $1,000. If you are eligible for a $7,500 credit because you bought a Tesla you'd be due a $8,500 refund. Let's say your tax liability for the year is $5,000. You've paid nothing in taxes for the year (probably because you knew you were buying the car and didn't need to). You bought a Tesla which makes you eligible for a $7,500 tax credit. You do not get anything refund from the IRS, but the $7,500 tax credit offsets your entire tax liability. So just because it's a credit doesn't mean the credit is effective for low income people. You have to have enough income to have a high enough tax liability to even get the full $7,500.
  - Quinner 10y ago
    Very few people with a tax liability of less than $7,500 would be buying a new Model 3.
    - hueving 10y ago
      This post is in response to someone saying "this is literally the cheapest car on the market", which is exactly what someone with that small of a liability would be looking for.

ganley 10y ago

I'd like to see that math. Highly skeptical.