11 ms·

BSDploy – FreeBSD jail provisioning

136 points by HugoDaniel 10y ago

thecolorblue 10y ago
Is this docker for BSD or is there more going on here?
- stonogo 10y ago
  The technologies upon which this is based have been part of FreeBSD long before Docker was even conceived. This appears to be a new management tool for existing functionality, along with a praxis for use.
  - vacri 10y ago
    The technologies that Docker was based on had also been part of linux for a long time beforehand. Docker was simply a new management tool for handling them.
    - craftkiller 10y ago
      Both correct, adding some concrete dates and names for the technologies: FreeBSD Jails were added in FreeBSD 4 which was released in 2000 Docker (on Linux) is based on Linux CGroups which were added in 2007 Initial release of docker in March 2013 Initial support for Docker based on jails added to FreeBSD in July 2015
- djsumdog 10y ago
  Docker for FreeBSD is over a year out of date and not production ready. I tried to use it for some things and it does work, but doesn't support any of the newer APIs in newer versions of docker compose and other orchestration tools. I really wish the Docker team would have made FreeBSD a first-class citizen, considering the native zfs support in FreeBSD. Currently the only thing Docker runs on natively is Linux. Even with the newest MacOS/Win variants, it still running in a hypervisor.
  - jfoutz 10y ago
    What's MacOS's version of LXC? Windows Server Containers look like a plausible foundation, but really new.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      Mac OS X has an hypervisor framework, which is also used by Docker https://github.com/docker/hyperkit https://github.com/docker/hyperkit https://developer.apple.com/reference/hypervisor https://developer.apple.com/reference/hypervisor Also there is App Sandbox for writing safer applications, but it requires programming explicitly against it. https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Security/Conceptual/AppSandboxDesignGuide/AboutAppSandbox/AboutAppSandbox.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40011183-CH1-SW1 https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Se...
      - jfoutz 10y ago
        But a hypervisor is a full VM. LXC, and Windows containers provide that funky process level virtualization. I guess the point i'm trying to make, there will be no "native" docker for MacOS. You'll always (or for the foreseeable future) have to start a linux VM (mabye windows?!?) to host the processes.
        pjmlp 10y ago
        Windows containers are based on Hyper-V. As for Mac OS, I use it for Cocoa and iOS development, so no experience with containers as such.
        jfoutz 10y ago
        Nah, MS added a lightweight version with no hyper-v https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/virtualization/windowscontainers/about/ https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/virtualization/windowsconta...
        10y ago
jimktrains2 10y ago
I've never understood why jails didn't take off. I guess maybe since linux took off and the bsds didn't, but they're just nice and elegant.
- icebraining 10y ago
  Linux "containers" didn't take off before Docker either, despite existing for many years (first in the form of OpenVZ, then as LXC).
  - ianai 10y ago
    I think that's a lesson of history and market share. It takes combining all the right circumstances for something to really take off. Still blows my mind that *bsd isn't used more often. My only guess is that, like everything, Microsoft beats it for the reasons MS beats anything: legalese.
    - jmspring 10y ago
      I'm not sure how Microsoft has anything to do with the subthread of comments you are responding to.
      - ianai 10y ago
        For many companies software choice is all about who's behind whatever. I.e. They want an outside entity bound to the service in a legal contract. I think that's a huge reason Microsoft owns the corporate IT sphere and why red hat/ubuntu have some standing while *bsd not so much.
  - unethical_ban 10y ago
    I can't get my head around docker, and LXC is so much easier to understand. It's a lightweight VM, administered traditionally. It's easy!
    - reacharavindh 10y ago
ianai 10y ago
Why doesn't *BSD have a greater market share? I just set up an openbsd firewall and loved it. Plus I have experience with zfs on FreeBSD-also loved it.
- 2trill2spill 10y ago
  The ATT lawsuit stopped BSD development for a year or so and many people moved to the Linux community during this time, because of the uncertainty caused be the lawsuit.
  - ianai 10y ago
    Comparatively, it's got the more permissive licensing, now.
    - 2trill2spill 10y ago
      True, hence why so many products are built on top of FreeBSD. But for organizations not shipping Linux binaries the license doesn't change much. Also Linux is a pretty awesome operating system so it doesn't make much sense for lot's of organizations to switch to FreeBSD even if there are some advantages to using FreeBSD.
      - dijit 10y ago
        Anecdatum; I'm moving our CentOS/RHEL Linux systems to FreeBSD over the coming two years. Databases/Fileservers/Firewalls/Webservers etc; So it's making a comeback, at least in my 11,000+ person org. :D
        ianai 10y ago
        I do feel like it has a comparative advantage in all of those spaces. ZFS, jails, and pf are all killer features for all of those spaces. The only possible draw back is it requires your IT staff know the technologies. What a company saves on licensing easily makes up for the staff wages though...maybe.
twic 10y ago
> BSDploy’s scope is quite ambitious, so naturally it does not attempt to do all of the work on its own. In fact, BSDPloy is just a fairly thin, slightly opinionated wrapper around existing excellent tools. But how is the author going to become rich and famous and be invited to all those conferences doing that? They need to drop this silliness and write the whole thing from the ground up! Get cracking, we want to see AT LEAST 30 000 lines of Go, or 10 000 of OCaml!
- ianai 10y ago
  S/he threw about 100,000 lines of fortran in for rendering a completely CGI cat gif.
  - jmspring 10y ago
    He needs to integrate it with systemd
    - kchoudhu 10y ago
      FreeBSD, thank god.
tete 10y ago
A similar amazing project in my opinion is iohyve. It has a fairly large portion of what you need to become a vserver provider in one command, easy to use: https://github.com/pr1ntf/iohyve https://github.com/pr1ntf/iohyve
- Mordak 10y ago
  Also vm-bhyve, which I've been happily using since 2015. Also amazing, also dead simple. https://github.com/churchers/vm-bhyve https://github.com/churchers/vm-bhyve It is nice that there are multiple wrappers around bhyve - competition is good, and it shows a healthy community.
johnsmith21006 10y ago
To me the separation of kernel and OS with Linux versus all together with BSD makes the container solution cleaner. Take Google that is rumored to be using the same kernel in their cloud, ChromeOS and Android. They concievably could have the same kernel from iOT, wearables, phone, tablet, 2 in 1, laptops, TV and cloud. Google now is using the container functionality in ChromeOS to enable Android. Now if they give access I can run my cloud service on a laptop or a tablet. Instead of spending a fortune for a Swift version and a copy in Java. But I also could develop once and deploy. Google has the containers like!E this on ARM and X86 and in their cloud on Power. Now the containers are arch specific but not far from fixing that. Google needs to allow a second SSD that is walled from the system SSD and give us access to launching containers. We get such storage in something like the M3 with rumored 16gb Samsung Pros but it is flash. It is just not possible to do the same in BSD based on my very old experience. Has it changed?

136 points by HugoDaniel 10y ago

thecolorblue 10y ago

Is this docker for BSD or is there more going on here?

stonogo 10y ago
The technologies upon which this is based have been part of FreeBSD long before Docker was even conceived. This appears to be a new management tool for existing functionality, along with a praxis for use.
- vacri 10y ago
  The technologies that Docker was based on had also been part of linux for a long time beforehand. Docker was simply a new management tool for handling them.
  - craftkiller 10y ago
    Both correct, adding some concrete dates and names for the technologies: FreeBSD Jails were added in FreeBSD 4 which was released in 2000 Docker (on Linux) is based on Linux CGroups which were added in 2007 Initial release of docker in March 2013 Initial support for Docker based on jails added to FreeBSD in July 2015
djsumdog 10y ago
Docker for FreeBSD is over a year out of date and not production ready. I tried to use it for some things and it does work, but doesn't support any of the newer APIs in newer versions of docker compose and other orchestration tools. I really wish the Docker team would have made FreeBSD a first-class citizen, considering the native zfs support in FreeBSD. Currently the only thing Docker runs on natively is Linux. Even with the newest MacOS/Win variants, it still running in a hypervisor.
- jfoutz 10y ago
  What's MacOS's version of LXC? Windows Server Containers look like a plausible foundation, but really new.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Mac OS X has an hypervisor framework, which is also used by Docker https://github.com/docker/hyperkit https://github.com/docker/hyperkit https://developer.apple.com/reference/hypervisor https://developer.apple.com/reference/hypervisor Also there is App Sandbox for writing safer applications, but it requires programming explicitly against it. https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Security/Conceptual/AppSandboxDesignGuide/AboutAppSandbox/AboutAppSandbox.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40011183-CH1-SW1 https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Se...
    - jfoutz 10y ago
      But a hypervisor is a full VM. LXC, and Windows containers provide that funky process level virtualization. I guess the point i'm trying to make, there will be no "native" docker for MacOS. You'll always (or for the foreseeable future) have to start a linux VM (mabye windows?!?) to host the processes.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        Windows containers are based on Hyper-V. As for Mac OS, I use it for Cocoa and iOS development, so no experience with containers as such.
        jfoutz 10y ago
        Nah, MS added a lightweight version with no hyper-v https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/virtualization/windowscontainers/about/ https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/virtualization/windowsconta...
        10y ago

jimktrains2 10y ago

I've never understood why jails didn't take off. I guess maybe since linux took off and the bsds didn't, but they're just nice and elegant.

icebraining 10y ago
Linux "containers" didn't take off before Docker either, despite existing for many years (first in the form of OpenVZ, then as LXC).
- ianai 10y ago
  I think that's a lesson of history and market share. It takes combining all the right circumstances for something to really take off. Still blows my mind that *bsd isn't used more often. My only guess is that, like everything, Microsoft beats it for the reasons MS beats anything: legalese.
  - jmspring 10y ago
    I'm not sure how Microsoft has anything to do with the subthread of comments you are responding to.
    - ianai 10y ago
      For many companies software choice is all about who's behind whatever. I.e. They want an outside entity bound to the service in a legal contract. I think that's a huge reason Microsoft owns the corporate IT sphere and why red hat/ubuntu have some standing while *bsd not so much.
- unethical_ban 10y ago
  I can't get my head around docker, and LXC is so much easier to understand. It's a lightweight VM, administered traditionally. It's easy!
  - reacharavindh 10y ago

ianai 10y ago

Why doesn't *BSD have a greater market share? I just set up an openbsd firewall and loved it. Plus I have experience with zfs on FreeBSD-also loved it.

2trill2spill 10y ago
The ATT lawsuit stopped BSD development for a year or so and many people moved to the Linux community during this time, because of the uncertainty caused be the lawsuit.
- ianai 10y ago
  Comparatively, it's got the more permissive licensing, now.
  - 2trill2spill 10y ago
    True, hence why so many products are built on top of FreeBSD. But for organizations not shipping Linux binaries the license doesn't change much. Also Linux is a pretty awesome operating system so it doesn't make much sense for lot's of organizations to switch to FreeBSD even if there are some advantages to using FreeBSD.
    - dijit 10y ago
      Anecdatum; I'm moving our CentOS/RHEL Linux systems to FreeBSD over the coming two years. Databases/Fileservers/Firewalls/Webservers etc; So it's making a comeback, at least in my 11,000+ person org. :D
      - ianai 10y ago
        I do feel like it has a comparative advantage in all of those spaces. ZFS, jails, and pf are all killer features for all of those spaces. The only possible draw back is it requires your IT staff know the technologies. What a company saves on licensing easily makes up for the staff wages though...maybe.

twic 10y ago

> BSDploy’s scope is quite ambitious, so naturally it does not attempt to do all of the work on its own. In fact, BSDPloy is just a fairly thin, slightly opinionated wrapper around existing excellent tools. But how is the author going to become rich and famous and be invited to all those conferences doing that? They need to drop this silliness and write the whole thing from the ground up! Get cracking, we want to see AT LEAST 30 000 lines of Go, or 10 000 of OCaml!

ianai 10y ago
S/he threw about 100,000 lines of fortran in for rendering a completely CGI cat gif.
- jmspring 10y ago
  He needs to integrate it with systemd
  - kchoudhu 10y ago
    FreeBSD, thank god.

tete 10y ago

A similar amazing project in my opinion is iohyve. It has a fairly large portion of what you need to become a vserver provider in one command, easy to use: https://github.com/pr1ntf/iohyve https://github.com/pr1ntf/iohyve

Mordak 10y ago
Also vm-bhyve, which I've been happily using since 2015. Also amazing, also dead simple. https://github.com/churchers/vm-bhyve https://github.com/churchers/vm-bhyve It is nice that there are multiple wrappers around bhyve - competition is good, and it shows a healthy community.

johnsmith21006 10y ago

To me the separation of kernel and OS with Linux versus all together with BSD makes the container solution cleaner. Take Google that is rumored to be using the same kernel in their cloud, ChromeOS and Android. They concievably could have the same kernel from iOT, wearables, phone, tablet, 2 in 1, laptops, TV and cloud. Google now is using the container functionality in ChromeOS to enable Android. Now if they give access I can run my cloud service on a laptop or a tablet. Instead of spending a fortune for a Swift version and a copy in Java. But I also could develop once and deploy. Google has the containers like!E this on ARM and X86 and in their cloud on Power. Now the containers are arch specific but not far from fixing that. Google needs to allow a second SSD that is walled from the system SSD and give us access to launching containers. We get such storage in something like the M3 with rumored 16gb Samsung Pros but it is flash. It is just not possible to do the same in BSD based on my very old experience. Has it changed?