5 ms·

You can argue about whether to call it stealing but it is breaking the law. It's shocking to me the way so many people, especially in the generation after me, h

by gmarx 10y ago

You can argue about whether to call it stealing but it is breaking the law. It's shocking to me the way so many people, especially in the generation after me, have proudly abandoned any pretense to morals or ethics. Sure GenX has its share of amoral people, but at least they had the good taste to lie about it. I mean, that's kind of admitting that morality is important

dmix 10y ago
You can consider copyright infringement wrong and simultaneously believe criminalizing it as theft is a bad idea. For example jay-walking is wrong because it's dangerous but many people do it anyway and it's not generally villianized. So then is the solution having police patrols in the streets fining/arresting people as a deterance? Will that reduce the problem and legitimately help both pedestrians and drivers? Or will educating people on the risks, creating alternatives such as adding more crossing points, improving cars ability to detect pedestrians, etc, etc, be a better solution? Not everything is black or white, good or bad.
- praneshp 10y ago
  I'm think simultaneously improving pedestrian facilities while making penalties on jaywalking harsh is an okay idea, especially if the goal is 100% compliance.
- thatcat 10y ago
  What if you just noticed that there are already tunnels under all the roads? Is it then immoral to walk under the road when some people interpret that as technically jay walking even though you're not directly effecting anyone in the way that the law assumes you will?
  - Crespyl 10y ago
    It's a bad analogy but I'll try to play along: The tunnels are private property, with a sign saying "Private Property - Do Not Enter", and nothing gives you the inherent right to use them.
- gmarx 10y ago
  I made no statement about whether or to what extent the law should punish this.
mod 10y ago
What's interesting in this case is that the guys who are loading some software are being prosecuted. They haven't stolen anything. If there's a specific law they're breaking, I'd be surprised.
- morganvachon 10y ago
  I'm not sure about the UK where these arrests occurred, but in the US it might fall afoul of the "making available" concept of US copyright law. In other words, the original content creator has the exclusive right to make the content available for public consumption, whether by paid or free streaming or download, and any other entity that makes the content available is in violation of copyright law. I'd be interested in the outcome of an arrest over Kodi boxes here in the States, especially if it were challenged all the way up to the Supreme Court, as the "loaded Kodi box" guys are not streaming the content themselves, only providing an easy path (and profiting).
  - CocaKoala 10y ago
    But the article seems to say that the Kodi software itself doesn't allow piracy, it's just software that third parties have written add-ons to, and those third-party add-ons give access to pirated content. If that's actually the case, then it's hard for me to see how selling the fully-loaded Kodi box is more illegal than selling a computer with an internet connection. After all, there's third party software for computers that give access to pirated content as well, right? edit: Ah, I guess I misunderstood the article. Some people are selling boxes preloaded with Kodi, and other people are selling boxes preloaded with Kodi+the third party apps, I guess?
    - freddyc 10y ago
      Yes, I think that's the key distinction. Kodi is available (for example) in the Play Store so selling a box with it pre-installed is not illegal. However, if you go the extra step and include the piracy add-ons and (potentially) a subscription IPTV service then you've overstepped the line.
    - 10y ago
vollmond 10y ago
Do you ever speed? Did you ever drink before legal age? Most people [citation needed] think of pirating a song or a movie as being on that level, if at all.
squeaky-clean 10y ago
> You can argue about whether to call it stealing but it is breaking the law. It's shocking to me the way so many people, especially in the generation after me, have proudly abandoned any pretense to morals or ethics You're conflating laws and morality. Wouldn't it make more sense that the people pirating movies don't see it as morally wrong, instead of people pirating movies because they are amoral?
- gmarx 10y ago
  No, I'm not. I'm making two different statements about related aspects of the same act. I'm surprised, but shouldn't be by the down votes in this thread and the disturbing responses. You guys do in fact proudly believe it is right to steal someone else's work product
  - squeaky-clean 10y ago
    When you wrote: > It's shocking to me the way so many people, especially in the generation after me, have proudly abandoned any pretense to morals or ethics. Sure GenX has its share of amoral people, but at least they had the good taste to lie about it. I mean, that's kind of admitting that morality is important You are either saying saying society is more immoral now (which is irrelevant and off-topic), or saying the piracy is immoral, which is debatable. But then you don't provide any points to back up your argument. Your first sentence, that piracy is illegal, is true but also besides the point of morality. Slavery was legal for a long time and I'm pretty sure we can all agree it was not moral just because it was legal. Apparently it's illegal to have an ice cream cone in your back pocket in Alabama, does that immediately make it immoral? You keep calling it stealing, which it is not. If you want to bring legality into the debate, piracy is legally not stealing. Loaded words like that do nothing to help a discussion. > You guys do in fact proudly believe it is right to steal someone else's work product And where are you getting this info? I haven't pirated anything for years and am generally against it. I certainly don't believe it's anyone's right to do so. I bet many people here feel the same way. However at the same time, realistically, I don't believe piracy is causing as much harm as anyone makes it out to be. Anecdotally, I don't know anyone who pirates things or has pirated things that would have purchased it otherwise. They just don't view/listen to/use the thing. Often the most successful software products are the ones with the highest piracy rates. Anti-piracy measures generally screw over the average consumer more than they screw over pirates. I liken it to jay-walking. Is it illegal? Sure. Is it bad in some circumstances? Sure. Should we dedicate a giant task force to jaywalking, create city streets that have anti-jaywalking barriers, and lock up anyone who does it? That would do more harm than good.
RobertoG 10y ago
"It's shocking to me the way so many people, especially in the generation after me, have proudly abandoned any pretense to morals or ethics." Not moral or ethics? I don't think so. Do you mean different morals and ethics that yours, maybe? That comment about the new generations is so old as the first generation, by the way.
throaway1234444 10y ago
Huh? My dad who is 65 now was proudly buying illegal cable descramblers in the 80s and bragging to all his friends about it, who would then go on to buy descramblers of their own. Since then he's moved on to Napster, Kazaa, Moviebox, Popcorn time, and Kodi.
- gmarx 10y ago
  Ah yes, the old, "my one counterexample totally refutes your hyperbolic generalization response". I'll try to remember to include a paragraph full of statistical disclaimers the next time I contribute a generalization to an internet discussion
akiselev 10y ago
> Sure GenX has its share of amoral people, but at least they had the good taste to lie about it. I mean, that's kind of admitting that morality is important. If that's your morality then everyone after GenX surely dodged a bullet. You'd prefer someone act like a psychopath rather than admit they don't agree with your moral code. Equating one nation's laws at one point in time to morality and ethics is just the icing on the cake. Perhaps you still think that African-American men who marry white women or use non-segregated bathrooms are immoral too?
TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
I am always fascinated by people like you. I assume you are apart of the tech industry. I would have never became apart of this industry if I thought the way you did. I got into this industry because things move faster than the low. Things are too slow. I don't give a fuck about laws if things move too slow.
TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
What morals and ethics are you referring to exactly? I don't really know you and you assume we have the same beliefs.
- gmarx 10y ago
  Taking someone's work product under circumstances that they do not want you to is wrong. The fact that it is super easy to do and does not result in him possessing few physical goods at the end of the process does not make this an exception. The fact that they are not offering it to you at a price and level of convenience that you have decided would be just, does not make it right
  - TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
    You should try spending a year as a production assistant and then come back to me.
gmarx 10y ago
Our society is doomed

by gmarx 10y ago

dmix 10y ago

You can consider copyright infringement wrong and simultaneously believe criminalizing it as theft is a bad idea. For example jay-walking is wrong because it's dangerous but many people do it anyway and it's not generally villianized. So then is the solution having police patrols in the streets fining/arresting people as a deterance? Will that reduce the problem and legitimately help both pedestrians and drivers? Or will educating people on the risks, creating alternatives such as adding more crossing points, improving cars ability to detect pedestrians, etc, etc, be a better solution? Not everything is black or white, good or bad.

praneshp 10y ago
I'm think simultaneously improving pedestrian facilities while making penalties on jaywalking harsh is an okay idea, especially if the goal is 100% compliance.
thatcat 10y ago
What if you just noticed that there are already tunnels under all the roads? Is it then immoral to walk under the road when some people interpret that as technically jay walking even though you're not directly effecting anyone in the way that the law assumes you will?
- Crespyl 10y ago
  It's a bad analogy but I'll try to play along: The tunnels are private property, with a sign saying "Private Property - Do Not Enter", and nothing gives you the inherent right to use them.
gmarx 10y ago
I made no statement about whether or to what extent the law should punish this.

mod 10y ago

What's interesting in this case is that the guys who are loading some software are being prosecuted. They haven't stolen anything. If there's a specific law they're breaking, I'd be surprised.

morganvachon 10y ago
I'm not sure about the UK where these arrests occurred, but in the US it might fall afoul of the "making available" concept of US copyright law. In other words, the original content creator has the exclusive right to make the content available for public consumption, whether by paid or free streaming or download, and any other entity that makes the content available is in violation of copyright law. I'd be interested in the outcome of an arrest over Kodi boxes here in the States, especially if it were challenged all the way up to the Supreme Court, as the "loaded Kodi box" guys are not streaming the content themselves, only providing an easy path (and profiting).
- CocaKoala 10y ago
  But the article seems to say that the Kodi software itself doesn't allow piracy, it's just software that third parties have written add-ons to, and those third-party add-ons give access to pirated content. If that's actually the case, then it's hard for me to see how selling the fully-loaded Kodi box is more illegal than selling a computer with an internet connection. After all, there's third party software for computers that give access to pirated content as well, right? edit: Ah, I guess I misunderstood the article. Some people are selling boxes preloaded with Kodi, and other people are selling boxes preloaded with Kodi+the third party apps, I guess?
  - freddyc 10y ago
    Yes, I think that's the key distinction. Kodi is available (for example) in the Play Store so selling a box with it pre-installed is not illegal. However, if you go the extra step and include the piracy add-ons and (potentially) a subscription IPTV service then you've overstepped the line.
  - 10y ago

vollmond 10y ago

Do you ever speed? Did you ever drink before legal age? Most people [citation needed] think of pirating a song or a movie as being on that level, if at all.

squeaky-clean 10y ago

> You can argue about whether to call it stealing but it is breaking the law. It's shocking to me the way so many people, especially in the generation after me, have proudly abandoned any pretense to morals or ethics You're conflating laws and morality. Wouldn't it make more sense that the people pirating movies don't see it as morally wrong, instead of people pirating movies because they are amoral?

gmarx 10y ago
No, I'm not. I'm making two different statements about related aspects of the same act. I'm surprised, but shouldn't be by the down votes in this thread and the disturbing responses. You guys do in fact proudly believe it is right to steal someone else's work product
- squeaky-clean 10y ago
  When you wrote: > It's shocking to me the way so many people, especially in the generation after me, have proudly abandoned any pretense to morals or ethics. Sure GenX has its share of amoral people, but at least they had the good taste to lie about it. I mean, that's kind of admitting that morality is important You are either saying saying society is more immoral now (which is irrelevant and off-topic), or saying the piracy is immoral, which is debatable. But then you don't provide any points to back up your argument. Your first sentence, that piracy is illegal, is true but also besides the point of morality. Slavery was legal for a long time and I'm pretty sure we can all agree it was not moral just because it was legal. Apparently it's illegal to have an ice cream cone in your back pocket in Alabama, does that immediately make it immoral? You keep calling it stealing, which it is not. If you want to bring legality into the debate, piracy is legally not stealing. Loaded words like that do nothing to help a discussion. > You guys do in fact proudly believe it is right to steal someone else's work product And where are you getting this info? I haven't pirated anything for years and am generally against it. I certainly don't believe it's anyone's right to do so. I bet many people here feel the same way. However at the same time, realistically, I don't believe piracy is causing as much harm as anyone makes it out to be. Anecdotally, I don't know anyone who pirates things or has pirated things that would have purchased it otherwise. They just don't view/listen to/use the thing. Often the most successful software products are the ones with the highest piracy rates. Anti-piracy measures generally screw over the average consumer more than they screw over pirates. I liken it to jay-walking. Is it illegal? Sure. Is it bad in some circumstances? Sure. Should we dedicate a giant task force to jaywalking, create city streets that have anti-jaywalking barriers, and lock up anyone who does it? That would do more harm than good.

RobertoG 10y ago

"It's shocking to me the way so many people, especially in the generation after me, have proudly abandoned any pretense to morals or ethics." Not moral or ethics? I don't think so. Do you mean different morals and ethics that yours, maybe? That comment about the new generations is so old as the first generation, by the way.

throaway1234444 10y ago

Huh? My dad who is 65 now was proudly buying illegal cable descramblers in the 80s and bragging to all his friends about it, who would then go on to buy descramblers of their own. Since then he's moved on to Napster, Kazaa, Moviebox, Popcorn time, and Kodi.

gmarx 10y ago
Ah yes, the old, "my one counterexample totally refutes your hyperbolic generalization response". I'll try to remember to include a paragraph full of statistical disclaimers the next time I contribute a generalization to an internet discussion

akiselev 10y ago

> Sure GenX has its share of amoral people, but at least they had the good taste to lie about it. I mean, that's kind of admitting that morality is important. If that's your morality then everyone after GenX surely dodged a bullet. You'd prefer someone act like a psychopath rather than admit they don't agree with your moral code. Equating one nation's laws at one point in time to morality and ethics is just the icing on the cake. Perhaps you still think that African-American men who marry white women or use non-segregated bathrooms are immoral too?

TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago

I am always fascinated by people like you. I assume you are apart of the tech industry. I would have never became apart of this industry if I thought the way you did. I got into this industry because things move faster than the low. Things are too slow. I don't give a fuck about laws if things move too slow.

TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago

What morals and ethics are you referring to exactly? I don't really know you and you assume we have the same beliefs.

gmarx 10y ago
Taking someone's work product under circumstances that they do not want you to is wrong. The fact that it is super easy to do and does not result in him possessing few physical goods at the end of the process does not make this an exception. The fact that they are not offering it to you at a price and level of convenience that you have decided would be just, does not make it right
- TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
  You should try spending a year as a production assistant and then come back to me.

gmarx 10y ago

Our society is doomed