4 ms·

> In addition, we simply don't acknowledge what we've done. This is spot on, and the biggest difference between America and other countries which commit atroci

> In addition, we simply don't acknowledge what we've done. This is spot on, and the biggest difference between America and other countries which commit atrocities. America is allowed to forget. And it's not a trivial or minor difference at all. Americans barely even really reckon with slavery. Compare to Germans with Nazism. Where's the slavery Auschwitz? There are minor museums here and there but it's completely incomparable.

seppin 10y ago
> Americans barely even really reckon with slavery. Compare to Germans with Nazism. Where's the slavery Auschwitz? There are minor museums here and there but it's completely incomparable. This is a completely subjective statement. The US has slavery museums in its Washington DC, and it's a topic that is never far from public conscientiousness. Compare that to Brazil, who's slave trade dwarfed that of North American, no formal recognition or ongoing efforts. Or Russia slowly and methodologically erasing the crimes of the Soviet union (and Stalin particularly) from public view. Or China reintroducing Mao as a folk hero, a mass murderer on par with Stalin. These are real omissions and cover ups. The US could be better, absolutely. But compared to others, it at least tries to reconcile their past with modern society.
- RodericDay 10y ago
  The US has "slavery museums". You don't even name them. It's utterly incomparable to Auschwitz. Then you go on to compare the USA to China, Russia, and Brazil. High standards. Lastly, there's a lot to be said for 1984-style repression like in those three, and Brave New World-style repression like in America. Even comedians have nice bits about how a lot of Americans can't even really place slavery well in a timeline, it's something that happened aeons ago and descendants should "stop complaining". The majority of americans treat the idea of slavery reparations like a joke. America doesn't really try. It makes a good show of trying, though.
  - seppin 10y ago
    > Then you go on to compare the USA to China, Russia, and Brazil. High standards. I am comparing one country to another, one that does better than the rest. You know, how any comparison is made in any discipline. You can't just hold up an imaginary standard that no country fulfills to make your point that X country could be better. Some people live in the real world.
    - RodericDay 10y ago
      > You can't just hold up an imaginary standard that no country fulfills I can't tell if you're joking. My post was literally about Germany, Nazism, and Auschwitz. > Some people live in the real world. The classic riposte of someone who prefers rationalizing to themselves why they are at an optimum than trying to do better. Nice try, Dr. Pangloss.
tropo 10y ago
Normal history classes in the USA are nearly 100% about atrocities, from the large and obvious down to the trivial and questionable. Hardly anything positive is ever said about the USA. One might even get the impression, as you seem to have, that the USA is an especially evil country. The reality is that every nation, every ethnicity, and every culture has been build upon a hill of skulls. As these things go, the USA has been less vicious than most.
- RodericDay 10y ago
  What's a "normal" history class? Is that sufficient to impart the attitude on the population at large? The USA is, on the whole, an extremely, extremely unrepentant country. Your average american will admit to a good number of crimes, but immediately contextualize so as to not really feel guilt about it. "Why should I pay for the crimes of my ancestors" type stuff, a disconnect from te past. This is why talk of e.g: reparations is incredibly, incredibly controversial.
  - tropo 10y ago
    Being unrepentant is different from forgetting. You said "America is allowed to forget", but that just isn't true. We are constantly reminded. It gets shoved down our throats all the time by self-loathing types, and most of us reject the guilt trip. Mostly, the rest of the world is far more awful, and we are thus justified in our national pride. The whole thing is like an original-sin (inherited, as from Adam and Eve) version of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-criticism#Communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-criticism#Communism Groups that fail to build a large enough hill of skulls end up being part of a hill of skulls. There is no shame in being on the winning team, but there is plenty of shame if you undermine the success of your team and thus snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

seppin 10y ago

> Americans barely even really reckon with slavery. Compare to Germans with Nazism. Where's the slavery Auschwitz? There are minor museums here and there but it's completely incomparable. This is a completely subjective statement. The US has slavery museums in its Washington DC, and it's a topic that is never far from public conscientiousness. Compare that to Brazil, who's slave trade dwarfed that of North American, no formal recognition or ongoing efforts. Or Russia slowly and methodologically erasing the crimes of the Soviet union (and Stalin particularly) from public view. Or China reintroducing Mao as a folk hero, a mass murderer on par with Stalin. These are real omissions and cover ups. The US could be better, absolutely. But compared to others, it at least tries to reconcile their past with modern society.

RodericDay 10y ago
The US has "slavery museums". You don't even name them. It's utterly incomparable to Auschwitz. Then you go on to compare the USA to China, Russia, and Brazil. High standards. Lastly, there's a lot to be said for 1984-style repression like in those three, and Brave New World-style repression like in America. Even comedians have nice bits about how a lot of Americans can't even really place slavery well in a timeline, it's something that happened aeons ago and descendants should "stop complaining". The majority of americans treat the idea of slavery reparations like a joke. America doesn't really try. It makes a good show of trying, though.
- seppin 10y ago
  > Then you go on to compare the USA to China, Russia, and Brazil. High standards. I am comparing one country to another, one that does better than the rest. You know, how any comparison is made in any discipline. You can't just hold up an imaginary standard that no country fulfills to make your point that X country could be better. Some people live in the real world.
  - RodericDay 10y ago
    > You can't just hold up an imaginary standard that no country fulfills I can't tell if you're joking. My post was literally about Germany, Nazism, and Auschwitz. > Some people live in the real world. The classic riposte of someone who prefers rationalizing to themselves why they are at an optimum than trying to do better. Nice try, Dr. Pangloss.

tropo 10y ago

Normal history classes in the USA are nearly 100% about atrocities, from the large and obvious down to the trivial and questionable. Hardly anything positive is ever said about the USA. One might even get the impression, as you seem to have, that the USA is an especially evil country. The reality is that every nation, every ethnicity, and every culture has been build upon a hill of skulls. As these things go, the USA has been less vicious than most.

RodericDay 10y ago
What's a "normal" history class? Is that sufficient to impart the attitude on the population at large? The USA is, on the whole, an extremely, extremely unrepentant country. Your average american will admit to a good number of crimes, but immediately contextualize so as to not really feel guilt about it. "Why should I pay for the crimes of my ancestors" type stuff, a disconnect from te past. This is why talk of e.g: reparations is incredibly, incredibly controversial.
- tropo 10y ago
  Being unrepentant is different from forgetting. You said "America is allowed to forget", but that just isn't true. We are constantly reminded. It gets shoved down our throats all the time by self-loathing types, and most of us reject the guilt trip. Mostly, the rest of the world is far more awful, and we are thus justified in our national pride. The whole thing is like an original-sin (inherited, as from Adam and Eve) version of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-criticism#Communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-criticism#Communism Groups that fail to build a large enough hill of skulls end up being part of a hill of skulls. There is no shame in being on the winning team, but there is plenty of shame if you undermine the success of your team and thus snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.