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I saw a clip on the news recently of a reporter badgering Trump about his intent to create closer ties to Putin. "He's a murderer, he's killing innocent civill

by Ntrails 10y ago

I saw a clip on the news recently of a reporter badgering Trump about his intent to create closer ties to Putin. "He's a murderer, he's killing innocent civillians", the reporter states as though this is particularly important. The President responded with something along the lines of "And we're so much better?". I'll freely acknowledge his flaws but by Gods it felt good to see someone acknowledge the tricks of perspective we use to justify our actions whilst condemning others.

jacobush 10y ago
Yes, he doesn't give a shit and that is nice sometimes. The US had a Trump coming for some time, I think. The system was so corrupt, the only candidates to crystallise were unpopular ones. Let's just hope out of this mess comes something better. Takes a thief to catch one and all that. Problem is, what happens when the thief caught the other thieves? :-/
dcposch 10y ago
He's not making a humble, leftish point about our moral failures in foreign policy! He was shrugging off the use of murder as a political tool. America may be in a bad place right now, and we've done a lot of awful things in other people's countries. But unlike Russia, we are not at a point where our leaders simply "disappear" domestic political opponents and journalists. Things can get a lot worse. Trump was expressing admiration for Putin. The reporter incredulously reminded him that Putin has personally had his opponents killed (Litvenenko, etc). Trump basically said "whatever, nbd, we do bad stuff too". I predict ugly surprises.
- Ntrails 10y ago
  > He's not making a humble, leftish point about our moral failures in foreign policy! How is that point leftish in any way? The left are not defined by the idea that there is a moral good and a moral bad, and they want the moral good. Left good Right bad is one of the most infuriating assertions to see casually chucked into a sentence. You're right, of course, that he wasn't trying to suggest that America should pay for it's sins or change it's attitude/foreign policy. I happily acknowledge that you think it's worse to murder high profile people in your own country compared to, say, exploding nobodies in a foreign one. I'll at least argue that the president being honest about them both being murder is pretty refreshing
  - dcposch 10y ago
    > Left good Right bad is one of the most infuriating assertions to see casually chucked into a sentence. i didnt say that. it just happens that in American politics, admitting that our foreign policy has been amoral is something done almost exclusively by the left. writers like noam chomsky, glenn greenwald, jeremy scahill. politicians like tulsi gabbard. etc. that's why i called it a "leftish point" politicians on the right, even when they favor less foreign intervention, tend to justify it in terms of cost savings, constitutional limits, and smaller government. rand paul, for example.
- anon2264 10y ago
  Surely things can get worse, but if the dead could speak, Gary Webb and Michael Hastings would want to have a word with you.
- aedron 10y ago
  > we are not at a point where our leaders simply "disappear" domestic political opponents and journalists Nice how you snuck "domestic" in there, as if that makes it so much better.
- Mikeb85 10y ago
  > He's not making a humble, leftish point about our moral failures in foreign policy! Morality doesn't exist along the left-right spectrum. Also, this is simply your perception. > But unlike Russia, we are not at a point where our leaders simply "disappear" domestic political opponents and journalists. No, they magically commit suicide, get killed in a car crash, or get murdered in a botched robbery.
  - seppin 10y ago
    > No, they magically commit suicide, get killed in a car crash, or get murdered in a botched robbery. In the west, name one.
    - Mikeb85 10y ago
      Google is your friend. Many US politicians (a surprising number really) have been killed. Of course, most have 'explanations' that are officially accidents. The government isn't going to admit to political assassinations, so for you to ask for 'proof' is an impossible task. Then again, there's 'explanations' for most deaths in Russia too. The real question is whether you believe that the US government only tells the truth and only the Russian one lies. Of course, we know the US government lies about a lot, that's how we know about CIA actions to overthrow governments, the Iran-Contra affair, etc... We know the US government engages in assassinations abroad, whether it's a covert action or via drone. To think that none of the politicians who are killed in plane crashes, gym accidents, car accidents or have heart attacks were expedited along is naïve.
      - seppin 10y ago
        > so for you to ask for 'proof' is an impossible task lol you are a excellent troll. "My unverifiable claims are just as true as yours are." No, there is a Russian opposition leader in a coma right now and you can't point to a single western journalist or politician suffering the same fate. > We know the US government engages in assassinations abroad, whether it's a covert action or via drone. Whataboutism, changing the subject, etc. I hope you are entertaining yourself b/c there is no other value to this thread.
jonathanstrange 10y ago
No,Trump is just an apologist, probably because he's a sociopath himself. The problem is that the democratic deficiencies and atrocities committed by the US are not really comparable to the democratic deficiencies of countries like Russia or China. They are based on entirely different history, motives and mindsets, and there is a fairly huge qualitative difference between them. The people who relativize them tend to play right into the hands of various propaganda machines and usually also commit a tu quoque fallacy. To give an example, while many bad things about Trump can be said, it seems unlikely (at least, I hope so) that he's planning to poison political dissidents, while it's almost certain that Putin ordered exactly that. Interpol and Scotland Yard would still like to have a word with someone who is now sitting in the Duma. Unless you think that Trump plans to poison someone or hire thugs from the underworld to assassinate reporters, there is no trick of perspective involved. The problem is that pointing out other people's or countries' wrongdoings relativizes both and detracts from your own wrongdoings in public perception, while both remain as wrong as before from a moral point of view. It's never legitimate to reply to critique by pointing to someone else's flaws.
epimetheus 10y ago
Just for some perspective, that "reporter" was Bill O'Reilley, and Russia wanted Fox News to apologize for the statement.
seppin 10y ago
> I saw a clip on the news recently of a reporter badgering Trump about his intent to create closer ties to Putin. "He's a murderer, he's killing innocent civillians", the reporter states as though this is particularly important. The President responded with something along the lines of "And we're so much better?". Yes "we" are. The west doesn't murder people for their politics or their opposition to people in power. This false equivalency only empowers aspirating dictators to act worse.

by Ntrails 10y ago

jacobush 10y ago

Yes, he doesn't give a shit and that is nice sometimes. The US had a Trump coming for some time, I think. The system was so corrupt, the only candidates to crystallise were unpopular ones. Let's just hope out of this mess comes something better. Takes a thief to catch one and all that. Problem is, what happens when the thief caught the other thieves? :-/

dcposch 10y ago

He's not making a humble, leftish point about our moral failures in foreign policy! He was shrugging off the use of murder as a political tool. America may be in a bad place right now, and we've done a lot of awful things in other people's countries. But unlike Russia, we are not at a point where our leaders simply "disappear" domestic political opponents and journalists. Things can get a lot worse. Trump was expressing admiration for Putin. The reporter incredulously reminded him that Putin has personally had his opponents killed (Litvenenko, etc). Trump basically said "whatever, nbd, we do bad stuff too". I predict ugly surprises.

Ntrails 10y ago
> He's not making a humble, leftish point about our moral failures in foreign policy! How is that point leftish in any way? The left are not defined by the idea that there is a moral good and a moral bad, and they want the moral good. Left good Right bad is one of the most infuriating assertions to see casually chucked into a sentence. You're right, of course, that he wasn't trying to suggest that America should pay for it's sins or change it's attitude/foreign policy. I happily acknowledge that you think it's worse to murder high profile people in your own country compared to, say, exploding nobodies in a foreign one. I'll at least argue that the president being honest about them both being murder is pretty refreshing
- dcposch 10y ago
  > Left good Right bad is one of the most infuriating assertions to see casually chucked into a sentence. i didnt say that. it just happens that in American politics, admitting that our foreign policy has been amoral is something done almost exclusively by the left. writers like noam chomsky, glenn greenwald, jeremy scahill. politicians like tulsi gabbard. etc. that's why i called it a "leftish point" politicians on the right, even when they favor less foreign intervention, tend to justify it in terms of cost savings, constitutional limits, and smaller government. rand paul, for example.
anon2264 10y ago
Surely things can get worse, but if the dead could speak, Gary Webb and Michael Hastings would want to have a word with you.
aedron 10y ago
> we are not at a point where our leaders simply "disappear" domestic political opponents and journalists Nice how you snuck "domestic" in there, as if that makes it so much better.
Mikeb85 10y ago
> He's not making a humble, leftish point about our moral failures in foreign policy! Morality doesn't exist along the left-right spectrum. Also, this is simply your perception. > But unlike Russia, we are not at a point where our leaders simply "disappear" domestic political opponents and journalists. No, they magically commit suicide, get killed in a car crash, or get murdered in a botched robbery.
- seppin 10y ago
  > No, they magically commit suicide, get killed in a car crash, or get murdered in a botched robbery. In the west, name one.
  - Mikeb85 10y ago
    Google is your friend. Many US politicians (a surprising number really) have been killed. Of course, most have 'explanations' that are officially accidents. The government isn't going to admit to political assassinations, so for you to ask for 'proof' is an impossible task. Then again, there's 'explanations' for most deaths in Russia too. The real question is whether you believe that the US government only tells the truth and only the Russian one lies. Of course, we know the US government lies about a lot, that's how we know about CIA actions to overthrow governments, the Iran-Contra affair, etc... We know the US government engages in assassinations abroad, whether it's a covert action or via drone. To think that none of the politicians who are killed in plane crashes, gym accidents, car accidents or have heart attacks were expedited along is naïve.
    - seppin 10y ago
      > so for you to ask for 'proof' is an impossible task lol you are a excellent troll. "My unverifiable claims are just as true as yours are." No, there is a Russian opposition leader in a coma right now and you can't point to a single western journalist or politician suffering the same fate. > We know the US government engages in assassinations abroad, whether it's a covert action or via drone. Whataboutism, changing the subject, etc. I hope you are entertaining yourself b/c there is no other value to this thread.

jonathanstrange 10y ago

No,Trump is just an apologist, probably because he's a sociopath himself. The problem is that the democratic deficiencies and atrocities committed by the US are not really comparable to the democratic deficiencies of countries like Russia or China. They are based on entirely different history, motives and mindsets, and there is a fairly huge qualitative difference between them. The people who relativize them tend to play right into the hands of various propaganda machines and usually also commit a tu quoque fallacy. To give an example, while many bad things about Trump can be said, it seems unlikely (at least, I hope so) that he's planning to poison political dissidents, while it's almost certain that Putin ordered exactly that. Interpol and Scotland Yard would still like to have a word with someone who is now sitting in the Duma. Unless you think that Trump plans to poison someone or hire thugs from the underworld to assassinate reporters, there is no trick of perspective involved. The problem is that pointing out other people's or countries' wrongdoings relativizes both and detracts from your own wrongdoings in public perception, while both remain as wrong as before from a moral point of view. It's never legitimate to reply to critique by pointing to someone else's flaws.

epimetheus 10y ago

Just for some perspective, that "reporter" was Bill O'Reilley, and Russia wanted Fox News to apologize for the statement.

seppin 10y ago

> I saw a clip on the news recently of a reporter badgering Trump about his intent to create closer ties to Putin. "He's a murderer, he's killing innocent civillians", the reporter states as though this is particularly important. The President responded with something along the lines of "And we're so much better?". Yes "we" are. The west doesn't murder people for their politics or their opposition to people in power. This false equivalency only empowers aspirating dictators to act worse.