4 ms·

India is very special, traditionalist society. As person who have spent a considerable time living in North India, I would say that people will turn this free m

by lngnmn 10y ago

India is very special, traditionalist society. As person who have spent a considerable time living in North India, I would say that people will turn this free money into gold and garments and other status symbols, like mobiles, which in turn, will cause inflation and soaring of prices of gold and other assets. The analogy could be a land in the great plains of US. In San Francisco or New York the value and the price of land is ridiculously huge, while in plains it is almost free - no one needs it. Similarly, free money will simply lose any value and some new form of wealth storage and accumulation would emerge very quickly. BTW, in India there is a free food available in many big temples, but for some reasons lots of people prefer to eat at home. In India people do not run after money per se, but for social status, which is a cornerstone of the Indian culture. India is special. They have many local government programs to give nutrition to the poor, which does not work well due to rampant corruption. Simply distributing money to a bank account will obviously eradicate some corruption, the problem is that, perhaps, a third of population in some areas have no bank account.

TheArcane 10y ago
> a third of population in some areas have no bank account. That was probably true before demonetisation.
balladeer 10y ago
> in India there is a free food available in many big temples, but for some reasons lots of people prefer to eat at home Okay, it needs some clarification :-) The free meal is supposed to be for people who need it but can't afford it but not supposed to be on a regular basis - for the destitute and people in general who find it difficult to buy a meal. But they (called "langars" at Gurudwaras, run by the Sikh community) never turn anyone away (regardless of faith or background or anything). Never! Some other temples and even some mosques do that, but it's not at all "all are welcome" like langars. So not the temples. So purpose isn't to be the meal provider even though they wouldn't return anyone. So those langars aren't meant for eating in general for people. Also, people are not often alone. There are families with them and it would be very hard to conceive eating at those temples with entire families. > In India people do not run after money per se, but for social status, which is a cornerstone of the Indian culture. That is not entirely true. Like any other place people of course go for status and respect but saying that Indians don't go for money is missing the point. As a matter of fact money is a driving factor here. Especially for the people for whom this plan might be aimed at - the people below the fringe. There's a term here "BPL" - below poverty line. And trust me when I say it "Poverty Line" is estimated so generously that it is a shame even from a developing country standards. Otherwise a lot more people would have fallen below poverty line here. You are spot on about rampant corruption which is uniformly present at every level - bottom to top. But remember that starts right at the top or bottom - depending at how you want to look at it. Govt is aiming at giving the people bank accounts too and hope it catches up and succeeds.
onion2k 10y ago
As person who have spent a considerable time living in North India, I would say that people will turn this free money into gold and garments and other status symbols, like mobiles, which in turn, will cause inflation and soaring of prices of gold and other assets. Simply distributing money to a bank account will obviously eradicate some corruption, the problem is that, perhaps, a third of population in some areas have no bank account. The economist Harrison Price used to talk about there being two different sorts of people - the "no, because" people and the "yes, if" people[1]. A "no, because" person will look at a seemingly impossible idea and state why it won't work, with some pretty damning reasons. That's what you're doing here - universal basic income won't work in India because people will spend the money on status symbols if they can get it, and many won't be able to get it due to not having a bank account. Those are fair criticisms. A "yes, if" person would look at this idea and say "yes, if we can persuade Indian people living in poverty to spend their income on things to lift themselves out of poverty, and we can figure out a way to get them bank accounts, then this could work." There's nothing wrong with being a "no, because" person, but "yes, if" tends to be a better approach for creative problem-solving. [1] https://toddpack.com/2011/09/07/saying-no-gracefully/ https://toddpack.com/2011/09/07/saying-no-gracefully/
- lngnmn 10y ago
  Skipping the "people types" nonsense, the "yes if" disconnected from reality assumption is the mark of an utopia, be it Platonic society or communism or extreme liberalism, which is always based on some unrealistic "ifs" instead of taking into account "what is". Evolutionary and social dynamics, caused by environmental constraints and necessary following competition for everything related to passing genes to a future generation, and so called human nature, which is, basically, the behavioral answer to these fundamental challenges, cannot be dismissed by any amount of empty hipster's "progressive" rhetoric, used to gain attention. Any proposal should be viewed as a constraint-satisfaction problem against the closest possible approximation to the actual reality. This is the only valid approach - to perform reality checks first, and it is habit for a scientifically inclined, trained mind and almost unknown skill to hipsters obsessed with their feelings and abstract, based on disconnected from reality oversimplified views and theories, like that naive "ethical" philosophy based on theology, wrong premises and naive assumptions. In other words, I did some simplest constraint-satisfaction checking, and the idea seem to fail to pass the first few fundamental social constraints. According to laws of logic, a single flaw is enough to destroy the whole thing. I found at least two.
piyush_soni 10y ago
You say as if there are temples offering free food on a daily basis in every nook and corner in India. The reality is so different from your experience.
- aptwebapps 10y ago
  I don't think that the GP's point was that free food is ubiquitous, merely that it is underutilized where it is available. I'm not commenting on whether that's actually the case, mind you.
piyush_soni 10y ago
One of the major efforts of the current (Narendra Modi lead) government has been to accelerate bank account opening for poor people, and has been quite successful. This will continue, as the benefits of having a bank account and an 'Aadhaar card' (something like SSN in US) keep on increasing.
aptwebapps 10y ago
" ... which in turn, will cause inflation and soaring of prices of gold and other assets." Whether they do that or not, it is not likely to cause much inflation. Funding for the scheme is meant to be taken from other, existing, programs, so the total stimulus is zero or near zero. Even if it does boost the price of some luxury items, and I am skeptical that will do so to any significant degree, that would simply reduce the consumption of said luxuries. Also, you aren't going to buy much gold with 7k p.a..
- jgalt212 10y ago
  perhaps, but it will most certainly boost the prices of the products that are disproportionately consumed by those who suddenly have more money. overall inflation will be determined by how the plan is funded.
azernik 10y ago
Essentializing and exoticizing much?
stubish 10y ago
Yes, give people money and they will spend it. Which means other people are selling things to them, giving them more money, which can also be spent. Stimulating the economy like this is a touted benefit of schemes that redistribute distribute wealth to the poorer segments of society, like UBI or minimum wage increases.

by lngnmn 10y ago

TheArcane 10y ago

> a third of population in some areas have no bank account. That was probably true before demonetisation.

balladeer 10y ago

> in India there is a free food available in many big temples, but for some reasons lots of people prefer to eat at home Okay, it needs some clarification :-) The free meal is supposed to be for people who need it but can't afford it but not supposed to be on a regular basis - for the destitute and people in general who find it difficult to buy a meal. But they (called "langars" at Gurudwaras, run by the Sikh community) never turn anyone away (regardless of faith or background or anything). Never! Some other temples and even some mosques do that, but it's not at all "all are welcome" like langars. So not the temples. So purpose isn't to be the meal provider even though they wouldn't return anyone. So those langars aren't meant for eating in general for people. Also, people are not often alone. There are families with them and it would be very hard to conceive eating at those temples with entire families. > In India people do not run after money per se, but for social status, which is a cornerstone of the Indian culture. That is not entirely true. Like any other place people of course go for status and respect but saying that Indians don't go for money is missing the point. As a matter of fact money is a driving factor here. Especially for the people for whom this plan might be aimed at - the people below the fringe. There's a term here "BPL" - below poverty line. And trust me when I say it "Poverty Line" is estimated so generously that it is a shame even from a developing country standards. Otherwise a lot more people would have fallen below poverty line here. You are spot on about rampant corruption which is uniformly present at every level - bottom to top. But remember that starts right at the top or bottom - depending at how you want to look at it. Govt is aiming at giving the people bank accounts too and hope it catches up and succeeds.

onion2k 10y ago

As person who have spent a considerable time living in North India, I would say that people will turn this free money into gold and garments and other status symbols, like mobiles, which in turn, will cause inflation and soaring of prices of gold and other assets. Simply distributing money to a bank account will obviously eradicate some corruption, the problem is that, perhaps, a third of population in some areas have no bank account. The economist Harrison Price used to talk about there being two different sorts of people - the "no, because" people and the "yes, if" people[1]. A "no, because" person will look at a seemingly impossible idea and state why it won't work, with some pretty damning reasons. That's what you're doing here - universal basic income won't work in India because people will spend the money on status symbols if they can get it, and many won't be able to get it due to not having a bank account. Those are fair criticisms. A "yes, if" person would look at this idea and say "yes, if we can persuade Indian people living in poverty to spend their income on things to lift themselves out of poverty, and we can figure out a way to get them bank accounts, then this could work." There's nothing wrong with being a "no, because" person, but "yes, if" tends to be a better approach for creative problem-solving. [1] https://toddpack.com/2011/09/07/saying-no-gracefully/ https://toddpack.com/2011/09/07/saying-no-gracefully/

lngnmn 10y ago
Skipping the "people types" nonsense, the "yes if" disconnected from reality assumption is the mark of an utopia, be it Platonic society or communism or extreme liberalism, which is always based on some unrealistic "ifs" instead of taking into account "what is". Evolutionary and social dynamics, caused by environmental constraints and necessary following competition for everything related to passing genes to a future generation, and so called human nature, which is, basically, the behavioral answer to these fundamental challenges, cannot be dismissed by any amount of empty hipster's "progressive" rhetoric, used to gain attention. Any proposal should be viewed as a constraint-satisfaction problem against the closest possible approximation to the actual reality. This is the only valid approach - to perform reality checks first, and it is habit for a scientifically inclined, trained mind and almost unknown skill to hipsters obsessed with their feelings and abstract, based on disconnected from reality oversimplified views and theories, like that naive "ethical" philosophy based on theology, wrong premises and naive assumptions. In other words, I did some simplest constraint-satisfaction checking, and the idea seem to fail to pass the first few fundamental social constraints. According to laws of logic, a single flaw is enough to destroy the whole thing. I found at least two.

piyush_soni 10y ago

You say as if there are temples offering free food on a daily basis in every nook and corner in India. The reality is so different from your experience.

aptwebapps 10y ago
I don't think that the GP's point was that free food is ubiquitous, merely that it is underutilized where it is available. I'm not commenting on whether that's actually the case, mind you.

piyush_soni 10y ago

One of the major efforts of the current (Narendra Modi lead) government has been to accelerate bank account opening for poor people, and has been quite successful. This will continue, as the benefits of having a bank account and an 'Aadhaar card' (something like SSN in US) keep on increasing.

aptwebapps 10y ago

" ... which in turn, will cause inflation and soaring of prices of gold and other assets." Whether they do that or not, it is not likely to cause much inflation. Funding for the scheme is meant to be taken from other, existing, programs, so the total stimulus is zero or near zero. Even if it does boost the price of some luxury items, and I am skeptical that will do so to any significant degree, that would simply reduce the consumption of said luxuries. Also, you aren't going to buy much gold with 7k p.a..

jgalt212 10y ago
perhaps, but it will most certainly boost the prices of the products that are disproportionately consumed by those who suddenly have more money. overall inflation will be determined by how the plan is funded.

azernik 10y ago

Essentializing and exoticizing much?

stubish 10y ago

Yes, give people money and they will spend it. Which means other people are selling things to them, giving them more money, which can also be spent. Stimulating the economy like this is a touted benefit of schemes that redistribute distribute wealth to the poorer segments of society, like UBI or minimum wage increases.