4 ms·

On one hand, I think that's a great thought experiment. You're right, there are nuances here, and oversimplifying into good vs evil doesn't serve anyone well.

by csallen 10y ago

On one hand, I think that's a great thought experiment. You're right, there are nuances here, and oversimplifying into good vs evil doesn't serve anyone well. On the other hand, it's sort of a disingenuous thought experiment, because everyone is already in 100% agreement that Nazi Germany, ISIS, Saddam, etc are morally awful. However we've been brainwashed into thinking that we're saints. So which perception is it that needs correcting?

soundwave106 10y ago
Some people are brainwashed into thinking that we are saints. As you can see in this thread, however, there are a fair amount of people that are quite aware of the United States' issues. (I also think it's not that great to cartoonishly portray Nazi Germany / ISIS / Saddam as one dimensional stock evil cartoon characters; this is also a sort of "brainwashing" from my perspective. Yes, these cultures also have done some awful, awful things, however I feel it is important not to erase the human impulse and circumstances that caused these to develop.) From a general audience perspective, I'm personally pretty cynical on addressing this though. In theory, it would be nice to see an end to "mass propaganda and willful ignorance". In practice, I honestly can't think of a country in which no propaganda occurs, and there is no such thing as state secrets. The United States may have done some awful things over the last 70 years, but so have other less powerful countries. Were the situation different, and another country dominant instead of the US... well, I personally would expect very similar results. I can't think of any nation / community / tribe that doesn't do some sort of bending and filtering of worldview. So from my perspective this really isn't a nation problem, this is a core human issue: tribalism. Resolving the issues that come up with tribalism would be great. However, given that it's such a core behavior of humanity, I think this is going to be terribly difficult, perhaps impossible, to do. It would be nice if I was wrong...
- csallen 10y ago
  It's unlikely that an HN thread about unreported drone strikes which hit #1 at 3AM EST will contain a fair representation of American opinions, but I digress. Tribalism and propaganda are closely related, in that the former contributes to the latter. However, the same is likely true of slavery and racism, the oppression of women, discrimination against gays, etc. You can limit all of these things without ending tribalism. At least I hope so, because tribalism is baked into human nature itself. So for example with propaganda, we can start by improving our history books and classes. And we've seen some of that over time. The way they taught kids about slavery in the 1920s, for example, was borderline criminal.

by csallen 10y ago

soundwave106 10y ago

Some people are brainwashed into thinking that we are saints. As you can see in this thread, however, there are a fair amount of people that are quite aware of the United States' issues. (I also think it's not that great to cartoonishly portray Nazi Germany / ISIS / Saddam as one dimensional stock evil cartoon characters; this is also a sort of "brainwashing" from my perspective. Yes, these cultures also have done some awful, awful things, however I feel it is important not to erase the human impulse and circumstances that caused these to develop.) From a general audience perspective, I'm personally pretty cynical on addressing this though. In theory, it would be nice to see an end to "mass propaganda and willful ignorance". In practice, I honestly can't think of a country in which no propaganda occurs, and there is no such thing as state secrets. The United States may have done some awful things over the last 70 years, but so have other less powerful countries. Were the situation different, and another country dominant instead of the US... well, I personally would expect very similar results. I can't think of any nation / community / tribe that doesn't do some sort of bending and filtering of worldview. So from my perspective this really isn't a nation problem, this is a core human issue: tribalism. Resolving the issues that come up with tribalism would be great. However, given that it's such a core behavior of humanity, I think this is going to be terribly difficult, perhaps impossible, to do. It would be nice if I was wrong...

csallen 10y ago
It's unlikely that an HN thread about unreported drone strikes which hit #1 at 3AM EST will contain a fair representation of American opinions, but I digress. Tribalism and propaganda are closely related, in that the former contributes to the latter. However, the same is likely true of slavery and racism, the oppression of women, discrimination against gays, etc. You can limit all of these things without ending tribalism. At least I hope so, because tribalism is baked into human nature itself. So for example with propaganda, we can start by improving our history books and classes. And we've seen some of that over time. The way they taught kids about slavery in the 1920s, for example, was borderline criminal.