11 ms·

Apple: iPad and Emacs

57 points by mnemonik 16y ago

speek 16y ago
Would ssh-ing into another machine count?
- mnemonik 16y ago
  I don't think the Author actually cares about emacs so much as what emacs stands for. Emacs represents the Free Software movement, and for it to be on the iPad would mean that Apple has changed their perspective on software development.
- dasht 16y ago
  No. When you give control over YOUR computer to some third party, you are giving up you freedom. Apple insists on having that kind of control over iPad purchasers. I can't speak for the FSF but I think it is a safe prediction that there will be no support port of GNU Emacs to iPad unless Apple changes its tune.
  - lallysingh 16y ago
    Say it with me: The iPad is not a computer. It's a web browsing appliance. Hackers want computers, full computers. And plenty of vendors (including apple) sell them in many different configurations, styles, and prices. Many other people do not want full computers -- they're a pain to manage and maintain, and their interfaces are too general-purpose and get in the way. Complaining about the freedom about an iPad is like complaining about the freedom in your TV's firmware or (fairly-advanced) toaster.
    - wollw 16y ago
      My N800 manages to be an "Internet Tablet" and have XTerm installed by default. Using it isn't necessary but it's nice to be able to run command line programs when I want.
    - cema 16y ago
      He is not complaining. He is explaining.
    - bodhi 16y ago
      I've heard this line of reasoning many times, and I've just figured out what I dislike about it. The iPad is a computer. It has a general-purpose operating system, and a very general-purpose input method. The reason that people like me are irritated is that the limitations that lead to you saying "[it] is not a computer" are business/social reasons, not technical. Given that a lot of the people here are technical-minded, it's reasonable to complain that the iPad is artifically restricted.
      - lallysingh 16y ago
        Any line between embedded and "full" computers isn't technical, without choosing fairly arbitrary criteria. A palm pre runs linux, and has a keyboard, it's SDK is HTML/JS. Why aren't people complaining about that? I believe that it's b/c they already knew what a phone was, and that they were happy that they got some power to hack phones when the smarter ones came out. The iPad went the other direction. The endpoint's the same -- a specialized device for a specific set of activities -- but now developers feel that things have been taken away instead of added. A social reason if I ever heard one. We're only going to see more specialized devices -- embedded systems are getting enough power to get really interesting -- so it's best that us hackers get used to it now.
        bodhi 16y ago
        Ok, so you see the iPad as a "a specialized device for a specific set of activities", whereas I and others see it as a general-purpose computer, that is artificially restricted. An iPad could technically run Emacs, but won't due to policy restrictions. > it's best that us hackers get used to it now I'd rather not, and I'd rather complain about companies that push computing in that direction. It seems to be a philosophical difference between us.
        loewenskind 16y ago
        Personally I'm glad that Apple ignores people like you and hope the trend continues. Hackers (a kind of slang word for "producers") already have a capible device. It's called a desktop computer. Everyone else is mostly a consumer. Apple has given us the (almost) perfect consumer device. Finally a machine that can be with us literally all time. We've tried the "I know! Make it a real computer!" route before. They were called tablets. Tablets failed for two reasons: horrible interface (stylus, yuck) and it was a real computer. Netbooks got closer by fixing the interface but they still suck because it's a whole computer. It took Apple figure out to forget the computer. Give a good interface in an instant-on device.
    - jpr 16y ago
      > Say it with me: > The iPad is not a computer. You and I both know that's a lie. And I don't utter lies, especially ones that only exist to serve big companies at the expense of ordinary people.
      - loewenskind 16y ago
        I disagree. Does it have, or potentially have a full OS? Sure. So do tons of embedded devices (e.g. home routers), but I bet many of those devices would void your support if you "jail broke" them. It's meant to be a device, regardless of what you think it's capable of. There is a reason nerds/geeks are never consulted by sales. If you don't like the device then don't buy it. I'm sure plenty of nerds will be out there saying "but! Lets make it a whole computer! Then we'll kill apple!". Buy one of their devices to go with your Android phone. Don't mind all the people laughing as you trudge your way through using them.
    - CodeMage 16y ago
      Say it with Apple: The iPad is not a web browsing appliance. They are selling it as a computer, without mentioning the word "computer". Just look at the ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fihOmQY-JxY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fihOmQY-JxY A device that can do all that has usually been called "computer".
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- mechanical_fish 16y ago
  So, as an iPad owner who is wondering about emacs, this is one avenue I've considered. A second: distribute emacs as source and let people who own the developer kit compile and install it. Given the rather large overlap between developers and emacs users, this might not be so bad. But it may be hard to envision anyone going through the effort. I'd be very curious to see what kind of emacs-like editor could be written in Javascript. Or a hybrid, with a JS front end Ajaxing away to a back end. And, of course, there's the obvious alternative of writing something that looks and works sort of like emacs but is written in Objective-C. If indeed there is sufficient interest in a serious text editor for the iPad, the BBedit and Textmate folks would appear to be sitting pretty.
joubert 16y ago
If you have an app store account, you can port it, install on your iPad, and make the code freely available so others with app store accounts can also build & install on their devices.
- pook 16y ago
  Ignoring that without an interpreted scripting language, you no longer really have emacs...
  - joubert 16y ago
    Huh?
    - rbanffy 16y ago
      80% of Emacs is written in Emacs Lisp. Most of the remaining 20% is the Lisp runtime.
      - joubert 16y ago
        Yes I know. I still don't see how this is relevant to my orignal comment. I never suggested trying to distribute a ported emacs on the app store or in binary form.
        rbanffy 16y ago
        Well... It is a stretch calling Emacs Lisp an interpreted scripting language, but the idea remains - an Emacs that's not programmable is just a text editor with hard-to-learn keyboard defaults.
- dasht 16y ago
  Actually, from what the EFF is saying, you almost certainly may not port GNU Emacs to iPad or, for that matter, offer any derivative work of a GPL program in the app store. If you agree to the terms of the App Store developer license, it appears that you would violate the GPL. See: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/03/iphone-developer-program-license-agreement-all http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/03/iphone-developer-progra...
kqr2 16y ago
Maybe he can try ymacs -- an emacs like editor that runs in your browser. http://www.ymacs.org/ http://www.ymacs.org/ Quick link to demo: http://www.ymacs.org/demo/ http://www.ymacs.org/demo/
- dca 16y ago
  That's incredible. I've wanted something like that for a while now. Thanks for pointing it out. Are you aware of a vim oriented one anywhere? (I switch back and forth on which I prefer given the time of year / language of the hour)
  - kqr2 16y ago
    Check out: http://gpl.internetconnection.net/vi/ http://gpl.internetconnection.net/vi/
    - dca 16y ago
      Nice. Thanks!
- mechanical_fish 16y ago
  Ooh, my dream is alive! I'll try it out.
- bonaldi 16y ago
  No ctrl or meta keys on the iPad keyboard might make that tricky. (ymacs is amazing, though)
  - angusgr 16y ago
    Of course, you can get an external keyboard for the iPad, and that comes with Ctrl and Meta keys. It's a fair point, though.
- hogu 16y ago
  ymacs is emacs in a browser. emacs-w3m is a browser inside emacs I just tried to run ymacs in a emacs-w3m, but it didn't work. that woulda been cool though, emacs in a browser running inside a browser which is inside emacs.
yurifury 16y ago
I was anticipating an explanation of multi-touch allows the iPad to become a productive coding platform. Typing would still be slow, but is efficient code manipulation with emacs + iPad feasible?
- apgwoz 16y ago
  In an all keyboard controlled app that relies haevily on chording, not a chance.
- larsberg 16y ago
  No. Fat-fingering is a real problem on the iPad. Small screen + big fingertips => large minimum size for any hitbox => bad for getting lots of code on the screen
thought_alarm 16y ago
If you want to try and build a version of emacs for the iPad that would be a fun exercise. If you bought an iPad with intention of downloading and installing a version of emacs you're doing it wrong, regardless of how Apple chooses to manage its app store. Anyway, Apple ships emacs with OS X, and I think they're one of the last *nix venders who still installs emacs by default. How ironic?
- hyperbovine 16y ago
  It always surprised me that Apple still ships Emacs. It strikes me as just the sort of thing--bulky, unintuitive, feature-laden, slow--that Steve Jobs would have a personal vendetta against.
  - thought_alarm 16y ago
    Well, the NeXT engineers were firmly in the emacs camp, and that heritage is still present in the Cocoa text system. I don't know if the iPad text system also supports emacs shortcuts, but if it did I'd rush out and buy a Bluetooth keyboard just as a token of solidarity.
    - mattj 16y ago
      If you use a bluetooth keyboard, it does some basic stuff (c-f, c-b etc)
      - thought_alarm 16y ago
        Ha! That's cool. And I suppose the iPhone will also work with Bluetooth keyboards when OS 4 is released. I can't wait to tell my mom that her cellphone supports emacs keyboard shortcuts.
  - jsz0 16y ago
    Out of sight, out of mind. At least they include nano in the base system.
  - 16y ago
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
sshirokov 16y ago
I'm curious what a native port of Emacs on an iPad actually contributes over an Screen/SSH session on a "real" machine with "real" compilers and tool-chains.
- jjs 16y ago
  I'm curious what a native port of Emacs on an iPad actually contributes over an Screen/SSH session on a "real" machine with "real" compilers and tool-chains. To get it running, you'd need (a) the ability to modify, redistribute, compile, and install arbitrary code (including GPL'd code), and (b) the ability to run interpreters and virtual machines (emacs lisp). So emacs itself is just a bellwether for the things he really wants in a computer.
rsl7 16y ago
We're unlikely to see emacs on the iPad, but it raises an interesting question in my mind. On the virtual keyboard, since we're not limited to pressing keys, might there be UI alternatives to the whole escape-meta-alt-control-shift behavior we're limited to today? control-x could be a swipe, for instance, or perhaps a larger area of the display could function as various temporary mode-specific functions. Dunno, just a thought.
- angusgr 16y ago
  FWIW, the iPhone Terminal app for jailbroken users has similar gestures like this for the common control sequences. They work pretty well, it just takes a while to remember which one is which (early on, trying to guess the Ctrl-C swipe can take quite a while.)
- statictype 16y ago
  Good point. The whole reason for using the keyboard is to avoid the 'cache miss' of moving your hand to the mouse. But on the ipad, the keyboard and screen are all the same, so it might actually be more efficient to use gestures
jimmyjazz14 16y ago
"Emacs was written by Richard Stallman, and it practically defines the Free Software movement (in a manner of speaking at least). Stallman's vision for the future of computing is very open, and Apple's vision for the future of computing is very closed. Hence, it's ironic that Emacs, which is such a profound part of Free Software history, can't ever run on the iPad." I fail to see the irony.
- swombat 16y ago
  You know... it's ironic in the Alanis Morissette sense. As in, it's not.
  - jongraehl 16y ago
    Irony can be construed pretty broadly, although I agree that she's beyond the pale at times.
  - shrikant 16y ago
    Heh. Reminded me of this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT1TVSTkAXg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT1TVSTkAXg (Comedian Ed Byrne picking apart the song)
krishna2 16y ago
I know JJ - he is a die-hard Vim fan! :)
jrockway 16y ago
The point of Emacs is that you can write code to solve immediate problems. The point of the iPad is that you can't run your own code on it. Problem. But what's great is that you can just buy yourself a $300 netbook that will run Emacs just great, and you have plenty of money left over to donate to the FSF.
mankoff 16y ago
I use emacs on my iPhone and plan to use it on an iPad if I get one. It isn't the official emacs, but is 'mg' the MicroGnuEmacs editor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mg_%28editor%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mg_%28editor%29 Jailbreak your iPhone/iPad and Cydia will allow you to install Vim or mg, plus Ruby, Python, etc. MG even supports LaTeX syntax highlighting, although of course the compilation must be done elsewhere.
- TechDogg 16y ago
  How did you get mg to work on iphone? I try to open a file with mg on my iPod Touch and I get "bus error".

57 points by mnemonik 16y ago

speek 16y ago

Would ssh-ing into another machine count?

mnemonik 16y ago
I don't think the Author actually cares about emacs so much as what emacs stands for. Emacs represents the Free Software movement, and for it to be on the iPad would mean that Apple has changed their perspective on software development.
dasht 16y ago
No. When you give control over YOUR computer to some third party, you are giving up you freedom. Apple insists on having that kind of control over iPad purchasers. I can't speak for the FSF but I think it is a safe prediction that there will be no support port of GNU Emacs to iPad unless Apple changes its tune.
- lallysingh 16y ago
  Say it with me: The iPad is not a computer. It's a web browsing appliance. Hackers want computers, full computers. And plenty of vendors (including apple) sell them in many different configurations, styles, and prices. Many other people do not want full computers -- they're a pain to manage and maintain, and their interfaces are too general-purpose and get in the way. Complaining about the freedom about an iPad is like complaining about the freedom in your TV's firmware or (fairly-advanced) toaster.
  - wollw 16y ago
    My N800 manages to be an "Internet Tablet" and have XTerm installed by default. Using it isn't necessary but it's nice to be able to run command line programs when I want.
  - cema 16y ago
    He is not complaining. He is explaining.
  - bodhi 16y ago
    I've heard this line of reasoning many times, and I've just figured out what I dislike about it. The iPad is a computer. It has a general-purpose operating system, and a very general-purpose input method. The reason that people like me are irritated is that the limitations that lead to you saying "[it] is not a computer" are business/social reasons, not technical. Given that a lot of the people here are technical-minded, it's reasonable to complain that the iPad is artifically restricted.
    - lallysingh 16y ago
      Any line between embedded and "full" computers isn't technical, without choosing fairly arbitrary criteria. A palm pre runs linux, and has a keyboard, it's SDK is HTML/JS. Why aren't people complaining about that? I believe that it's b/c they already knew what a phone was, and that they were happy that they got some power to hack phones when the smarter ones came out. The iPad went the other direction. The endpoint's the same -- a specialized device for a specific set of activities -- but now developers feel that things have been taken away instead of added. A social reason if I ever heard one. We're only going to see more specialized devices -- embedded systems are getting enough power to get really interesting -- so it's best that us hackers get used to it now.
      - bodhi 16y ago
        Ok, so you see the iPad as a "a specialized device for a specific set of activities", whereas I and others see it as a general-purpose computer, that is artificially restricted. An iPad could technically run Emacs, but won't due to policy restrictions. > it's best that us hackers get used to it now I'd rather not, and I'd rather complain about companies that push computing in that direction. It seems to be a philosophical difference between us.
        loewenskind 16y ago
        Personally I'm glad that Apple ignores people like you and hope the trend continues. Hackers (a kind of slang word for "producers") already have a capible device. It's called a desktop computer. Everyone else is mostly a consumer. Apple has given us the (almost) perfect consumer device. Finally a machine that can be with us literally all time. We've tried the "I know! Make it a real computer!" route before. They were called tablets. Tablets failed for two reasons: horrible interface (stylus, yuck) and it was a real computer. Netbooks got closer by fixing the interface but they still suck because it's a whole computer. It took Apple figure out to forget the computer. Give a good interface in an instant-on device.
  - jpr 16y ago
    > Say it with me: > The iPad is not a computer. You and I both know that's a lie. And I don't utter lies, especially ones that only exist to serve big companies at the expense of ordinary people.
    - loewenskind 16y ago
      I disagree. Does it have, or potentially have a full OS? Sure. So do tons of embedded devices (e.g. home routers), but I bet many of those devices would void your support if you "jail broke" them. It's meant to be a device, regardless of what you think it's capable of. There is a reason nerds/geeks are never consulted by sales. If you don't like the device then don't buy it. I'm sure plenty of nerds will be out there saying "but! Lets make it a whole computer! Then we'll kill apple!". Buy one of their devices to go with your Android phone. Don't mind all the people laughing as you trudge your way through using them.
  - CodeMage 16y ago
    Say it with Apple: The iPad is not a web browsing appliance. They are selling it as a computer, without mentioning the word "computer". Just look at the ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fihOmQY-JxY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fihOmQY-JxY A device that can do all that has usually been called "computer".
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
mechanical_fish 16y ago
So, as an iPad owner who is wondering about emacs, this is one avenue I've considered. A second: distribute emacs as source and let people who own the developer kit compile and install it. Given the rather large overlap between developers and emacs users, this might not be so bad. But it may be hard to envision anyone going through the effort. I'd be very curious to see what kind of emacs-like editor could be written in Javascript. Or a hybrid, with a JS front end Ajaxing away to a back end. And, of course, there's the obvious alternative of writing something that looks and works sort of like emacs but is written in Objective-C. If indeed there is sufficient interest in a serious text editor for the iPad, the BBedit and Textmate folks would appear to be sitting pretty.

joubert 16y ago

If you have an app store account, you can port it, install on your iPad, and make the code freely available so others with app store accounts can also build & install on their devices.

pook 16y ago
Ignoring that without an interpreted scripting language, you no longer really have emacs...
- joubert 16y ago
  Huh?
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    80% of Emacs is written in Emacs Lisp. Most of the remaining 20% is the Lisp runtime.
    - joubert 16y ago
      Yes I know. I still don't see how this is relevant to my orignal comment. I never suggested trying to distribute a ported emacs on the app store or in binary form.
      - rbanffy 16y ago
        Well... It is a stretch calling Emacs Lisp an interpreted scripting language, but the idea remains - an Emacs that's not programmable is just a text editor with hard-to-learn keyboard defaults.
dasht 16y ago
Actually, from what the EFF is saying, you almost certainly may not port GNU Emacs to iPad or, for that matter, offer any derivative work of a GPL program in the app store. If you agree to the terms of the App Store developer license, it appears that you would violate the GPL. See: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/03/iphone-developer-program-license-agreement-all http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/03/iphone-developer-progra...

kqr2 16y ago

Maybe he can try ymacs -- an emacs like editor that runs in your browser. http://www.ymacs.org/ http://www.ymacs.org/ Quick link to demo: http://www.ymacs.org/demo/ http://www.ymacs.org/demo/

dca 16y ago
That's incredible. I've wanted something like that for a while now. Thanks for pointing it out. Are you aware of a vim oriented one anywhere? (I switch back and forth on which I prefer given the time of year / language of the hour)
- kqr2 16y ago
  Check out: http://gpl.internetconnection.net/vi/ http://gpl.internetconnection.net/vi/
  - dca 16y ago
    Nice. Thanks!
mechanical_fish 16y ago
Ooh, my dream is alive! I'll try it out.
bonaldi 16y ago
No ctrl or meta keys on the iPad keyboard might make that tricky. (ymacs is amazing, though)
- angusgr 16y ago
  Of course, you can get an external keyboard for the iPad, and that comes with Ctrl and Meta keys. It's a fair point, though.
hogu 16y ago
ymacs is emacs in a browser. emacs-w3m is a browser inside emacs I just tried to run ymacs in a emacs-w3m, but it didn't work. that woulda been cool though, emacs in a browser running inside a browser which is inside emacs.

yurifury 16y ago

I was anticipating an explanation of multi-touch allows the iPad to become a productive coding platform. Typing would still be slow, but is efficient code manipulation with emacs + iPad feasible?

apgwoz 16y ago
In an all keyboard controlled app that relies haevily on chording, not a chance.
larsberg 16y ago
No. Fat-fingering is a real problem on the iPad. Small screen + big fingertips => large minimum size for any hitbox => bad for getting lots of code on the screen

thought_alarm 16y ago

If you want to try and build a version of emacs for the iPad that would be a fun exercise. If you bought an iPad with intention of downloading and installing a version of emacs you're doing it wrong, regardless of how Apple chooses to manage its app store. Anyway, Apple ships emacs with OS X, and I think they're one of the last *nix venders who still installs emacs by default. How ironic?

hyperbovine 16y ago
It always surprised me that Apple still ships Emacs. It strikes me as just the sort of thing--bulky, unintuitive, feature-laden, slow--that Steve Jobs would have a personal vendetta against.
- thought_alarm 16y ago
  Well, the NeXT engineers were firmly in the emacs camp, and that heritage is still present in the Cocoa text system. I don't know if the iPad text system also supports emacs shortcuts, but if it did I'd rush out and buy a Bluetooth keyboard just as a token of solidarity.
  - mattj 16y ago
    If you use a bluetooth keyboard, it does some basic stuff (c-f, c-b etc)
    - thought_alarm 16y ago
      Ha! That's cool. And I suppose the iPhone will also work with Bluetooth keyboards when OS 4 is released. I can't wait to tell my mom that her cellphone supports emacs keyboard shortcuts.
- jsz0 16y ago
  Out of sight, out of mind. At least they include nano in the base system.
- 16y ago

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

sshirokov 16y ago

I'm curious what a native port of Emacs on an iPad actually contributes over an Screen/SSH session on a "real" machine with "real" compilers and tool-chains.

jjs 16y ago
I'm curious what a native port of Emacs on an iPad actually contributes over an Screen/SSH session on a "real" machine with "real" compilers and tool-chains. To get it running, you'd need (a) the ability to modify, redistribute, compile, and install arbitrary code (including GPL'd code), and (b) the ability to run interpreters and virtual machines (emacs lisp). So emacs itself is just a bellwether for the things he really wants in a computer.

rsl7 16y ago

We're unlikely to see emacs on the iPad, but it raises an interesting question in my mind. On the virtual keyboard, since we're not limited to pressing keys, might there be UI alternatives to the whole escape-meta-alt-control-shift behavior we're limited to today? control-x could be a swipe, for instance, or perhaps a larger area of the display could function as various temporary mode-specific functions. Dunno, just a thought.

angusgr 16y ago
FWIW, the iPhone Terminal app for jailbroken users has similar gestures like this for the common control sequences. They work pretty well, it just takes a while to remember which one is which (early on, trying to guess the Ctrl-C swipe can take quite a while.)
statictype 16y ago
Good point. The whole reason for using the keyboard is to avoid the 'cache miss' of moving your hand to the mouse. But on the ipad, the keyboard and screen are all the same, so it might actually be more efficient to use gestures

jimmyjazz14 16y ago

"Emacs was written by Richard Stallman, and it practically defines the Free Software movement (in a manner of speaking at least). Stallman's vision for the future of computing is very open, and Apple's vision for the future of computing is very closed. Hence, it's ironic that Emacs, which is such a profound part of Free Software history, can't ever run on the iPad." I fail to see the irony.

swombat 16y ago
You know... it's ironic in the Alanis Morissette sense. As in, it's not.
- jongraehl 16y ago
  Irony can be construed pretty broadly, although I agree that she's beyond the pale at times.
- shrikant 16y ago
  Heh. Reminded me of this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT1TVSTkAXg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT1TVSTkAXg (Comedian Ed Byrne picking apart the song)

krishna2 16y ago

I know JJ - he is a die-hard Vim fan! :)

jrockway 16y ago

The point of Emacs is that you can write code to solve immediate problems. The point of the iPad is that you can't run your own code on it. Problem. But what's great is that you can just buy yourself a $300 netbook that will run Emacs just great, and you have plenty of money left over to donate to the FSF.

mankoff 16y ago

I use emacs on my iPhone and plan to use it on an iPad if I get one. It isn't the official emacs, but is 'mg' the MicroGnuEmacs editor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mg_%28editor%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mg_%28editor%29 Jailbreak your iPhone/iPad and Cydia will allow you to install Vim or mg, plus Ruby, Python, etc. MG even supports LaTeX syntax highlighting, although of course the compilation must be done elsewhere.

TechDogg 16y ago
How did you get mg to work on iphone? I try to open a file with mg on my iPod Touch and I get "bus error".