4 ms·

I do not understand, it took only one input to put it in a dive with auto pilot engaged but two inputs to cancel auto pilot to get it out of the dive?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
lutusp 10y ago
Apparently the pilot's control was disabled by the camera, which, until it was removed, prevented either pilot's control inputs from having the intended effect.
ars 10y ago
The camera forced one stick forward, the co-pilot pulled the other one back. Since the two conflicted the computer decided on its own what to do, and didn't listen to either of them.
sk5t 10y ago
It looks like the conflicting stick inputs (once the copilot managed to manipulate the controls, from the cockpit ceiling) caused the autopilot to retake control.
- salex89 10y ago
  It literally said:"FU guys, I'm getting outta here, with or without you" :D .
NikolaeVarius 10y ago
Controls laws on an Airplane is an extremely tricky subject and there is no real consensus as to how to deal with conflicting inputs.
huh333i 10y ago
I have an A320 type so let me try to guess what happened in the A330. The airbus is... different. You can displace the stick 100% in any direction and it wont bank beyond 67 degrees, pitch up more than 30, or pitch down more than 15. It wont overstress because the stick controls G-forces through a closed feedback loop. It also has high-speed protections where it will automatically apply positive G-force to pitch up in order to slow down. The pilot cannot override these protections. You can do whatever you want with the stick and as long as the computers are working and getting good data the aircraft will not stall, overspeed, overstress, or roll upside down. If you get too careless it will even run the engines up to full takeoff thrust and microblog it to you. These protections were working the whole time the captains stick was deflected 100% nose down. The system isn't perfect and it allows some overshoot, as you can see, but at least the protections kept it within 17 degrees nose down and mach 0.9. Now to the story at hand, the captain probably didn't realize his camera was wedged between the seat's armrest and the control stick as he moved the seat forward. I can only guess that he assumed the strange attitude was the result of a computer malfunction because he considered turning off the computers that provide many of the protections I mentioned. Good thing he didn't. Now the first officer gets into the cockpit and probably tosses a wtf glance at the captain but upon getting one right back he decides to use his own stick. The sticks in the bus aren't mechanically connected but, just like with mechanically connected sticks in antique Boeing aircraft, their force inputs are mathematically summed. Yet unlike mechanically connected sticks, displacement isn't transmitted across the cockpit so the first officer wouldn't be wise to the fact that the captain's stick was full forward. Luckily the bus engineers thought of this. When the first officer pulled his stick back the computer would have noticed both sticks moving and it would have announced "dual input". This isn't a microblog or a gentle woman's voice. It's a pissed off dude trying to talk some sense into you. At that point the captain probably looked at the palms of his hands to make sure they weren't on the stick. He probably showed his palms to the first officer too. At that point they had two heads working on the problem and it wouldn't have taken them too long to find the camera.
- crooked-v 10y ago
  Sounds like the engineering moral of the story here is "don't make joystick mounts placed in relation the armrest such that small objects can easily get jammed between them".
  - brohee 10y ago
    It was a Nikon DSLR, hardly hard to see...
- duskwuff 10y ago
  > If you get too careless it will even run the engines up to full takeoff thrust and microblog it to you. What does "microblog" mean in this context? I assume it doesn't mean that the A330 isn't posting about its engine thrust on Twitter. (Yet.)
  - huh333i 10y ago
    The thrust FMA (flight mode annunciator) will show "A. FLOOR" alpha floor or "TOGA LK" (takeoff/go-around thrust lock). The former means Fifi just took over and is applying full thrust for an immediate high AoA situation. The latter means the emergency is over but Fifi is so white knuckled and panting that she's ignoring lever position and keeping full thrust. I say microblog because you have to make a conscious effort to read these things. I just got curious and did some googling and it I'm not the only one who can be confused... The aural warning for low speed is the last thing you hear and unless you actually see TOGA LK and turn off autothrust you'll be overspeeding soon. With flaps down (lower max speed) this happens pretty fast. https://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/21/loss-of-airspeed-on-approach-incident-shows-pilots-lack-of-comprehension-of-automatic-systems/ https://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/21/loss-of-airspeed...
    - cypherpunks01 10y ago
      Your 2 comments above are very insightful! Thanks :)
    - 10y ago
rtkwe 10y ago
Generally one pilot would just be working the controls and needs to be able to override the auto-pilot in an emergency very quickly. Then when the co-pilot comes in and pulls his stick back the computer doesn't know which to follow without side stick priority being set (which is normally just equal priority) so it goes back to auto-pilot and pulls out of the dive the captain was ordering with his jammed stick.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

lutusp 10y ago

Apparently the pilot's control was disabled by the camera, which, until it was removed, prevented either pilot's control inputs from having the intended effect.

ars 10y ago

The camera forced one stick forward, the co-pilot pulled the other one back. Since the two conflicted the computer decided on its own what to do, and didn't listen to either of them.

sk5t 10y ago

It looks like the conflicting stick inputs (once the copilot managed to manipulate the controls, from the cockpit ceiling) caused the autopilot to retake control.

salex89 10y ago
It literally said:"FU guys, I'm getting outta here, with or without you" :D .

NikolaeVarius 10y ago

Controls laws on an Airplane is an extremely tricky subject and there is no real consensus as to how to deal with conflicting inputs.

huh333i 10y ago

I have an A320 type so let me try to guess what happened in the A330. The airbus is... different. You can displace the stick 100% in any direction and it wont bank beyond 67 degrees, pitch up more than 30, or pitch down more than 15. It wont overstress because the stick controls G-forces through a closed feedback loop. It also has high-speed protections where it will automatically apply positive G-force to pitch up in order to slow down. The pilot cannot override these protections. You can do whatever you want with the stick and as long as the computers are working and getting good data the aircraft will not stall, overspeed, overstress, or roll upside down. If you get too careless it will even run the engines up to full takeoff thrust and microblog it to you. These protections were working the whole time the captains stick was deflected 100% nose down. The system isn't perfect and it allows some overshoot, as you can see, but at least the protections kept it within 17 degrees nose down and mach 0.9. Now to the story at hand, the captain probably didn't realize his camera was wedged between the seat's armrest and the control stick as he moved the seat forward. I can only guess that he assumed the strange attitude was the result of a computer malfunction because he considered turning off the computers that provide many of the protections I mentioned. Good thing he didn't. Now the first officer gets into the cockpit and probably tosses a wtf glance at the captain but upon getting one right back he decides to use his own stick. The sticks in the bus aren't mechanically connected but, just like with mechanically connected sticks in antique Boeing aircraft, their force inputs are mathematically summed. Yet unlike mechanically connected sticks, displacement isn't transmitted across the cockpit so the first officer wouldn't be wise to the fact that the captain's stick was full forward. Luckily the bus engineers thought of this. When the first officer pulled his stick back the computer would have noticed both sticks moving and it would have announced "dual input". This isn't a microblog or a gentle woman's voice. It's a pissed off dude trying to talk some sense into you. At that point the captain probably looked at the palms of his hands to make sure they weren't on the stick. He probably showed his palms to the first officer too. At that point they had two heads working on the problem and it wouldn't have taken them too long to find the camera.

crooked-v 10y ago
Sounds like the engineering moral of the story here is "don't make joystick mounts placed in relation the armrest such that small objects can easily get jammed between them".
- brohee 10y ago
  It was a Nikon DSLR, hardly hard to see...
duskwuff 10y ago
> If you get too careless it will even run the engines up to full takeoff thrust and microblog it to you. What does "microblog" mean in this context? I assume it doesn't mean that the A330 isn't posting about its engine thrust on Twitter. (Yet.)
- huh333i 10y ago
  The thrust FMA (flight mode annunciator) will show "A. FLOOR" alpha floor or "TOGA LK" (takeoff/go-around thrust lock). The former means Fifi just took over and is applying full thrust for an immediate high AoA situation. The latter means the emergency is over but Fifi is so white knuckled and panting that she's ignoring lever position and keeping full thrust. I say microblog because you have to make a conscious effort to read these things. I just got curious and did some googling and it I'm not the only one who can be confused... The aural warning for low speed is the last thing you hear and unless you actually see TOGA LK and turn off autothrust you'll be overspeeding soon. With flaps down (lower max speed) this happens pretty fast. https://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/21/loss-of-airspeed-on-approach-incident-shows-pilots-lack-of-comprehension-of-automatic-systems/ https://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/21/loss-of-airspeed...
  - cypherpunks01 10y ago
    Your 2 comments above are very insightful! Thanks :)
  - 10y ago

rtkwe 10y ago

Generally one pilot would just be working the controls and needs to be able to override the auto-pilot in an emergency very quickly. Then when the co-pilot comes in and pulls his stick back the computer doesn't know which to follow without side stick priority being set (which is normally just equal priority) so it goes back to auto-pilot and pulls out of the dive the captain was ordering with his jammed stick.