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The opposite! The aim isn't to get a rise out of them, it is to split them. Lighting the spark that causes significant in-fighting means they do all the work f

by alva 10y ago

The opposite! The aim isn't to get a rise out of them, it is to split them. Lighting the spark that causes significant in-fighting means they do all the work for you. The environment in some of these vulnerable groups make this simple. Divide them into a couple of sections based on ideological disagreements and it comes crashing down quickly and hard. Religious and many political groups are easy to get a rise out of, but their commitment to a common goal is greater than internal power struggles. It is much harder to split these groups when their common aim is so clear and hard felt. When groups with a strong common aim and a sense of unity are attacked by the out-group, they get stronger in their resolve.

breatheoften 10y ago
I don't think this is at all the mechanism at work. It's much more accurate to think of trollers as spammers -- and the effect they can have on discourse is almost akin to violence as they attack the means by which the mediums they troll could otherwise support meaningful communication. You suppose that variations in response to trolling from Religious communities vs liberal communities has some fundamental relationship to the intrinsic properties of those communities. In reality, I think trolling is a weapon and the difference you see in how these communities respond reflects the difference in the amount of ammunition spent on trolling those communities vs the size and efficacy of any agenda that tried to counter the influence of trolls.
- alva 10y ago
  One example might help reinforce my case. Note to commenters, I am not making any judgements on these communities, these are just my observations. A hard left community which is heavily invested in identity politics is inherently vulnerable to this type of destruction. It is in the DNA of the movement. I have witnessed this in many groups. Group starts building large number of members for a cause, lets call it "Womans March". Initially all unified behind a common cause. Exploit identity politics to break it. "Wow, I can't believe ALL the admins are white woman" "smh, these people need to stay in their lane and lets POC take charge" "my trans* friend was just messaged by an admin telling them "men" aren't allowed" "some of the people on this page are too ghetto" As long as the culture is focused on grievance and division, they will divide and divide with a miniscule amount of pushing. Resentment and infighting grow almost exponentially. A group of 5 co-ordinated trolls using these tactics collapse massive communities over and over again. You would not believe how effective it is. These are all old CIA tactics, unclassified manuals are studied and disseminated.
  - breatheoften 10y ago
    I think the actual explanatory power from your example comes from the fact that these are communities whose purpose is to grow over time. The coordinated trolling is a means to attack that growth by destroying the means of legitimate discourse (particularly around any form of disagreement) and by recruiting more trolls (who aren't part of the original 5 coordinators but who might share the goal of the coordinators). The efficacy of this tactic has nothing to do with the properties of the community being attacked (other than that it's a community that exists to grow) and everything to do with the properties and volume of the attackers. Additionally -- I think the women's march example undermines your claim. Despite significant coordinated deployment of these tactics, the group became quite large indeed. The only people who now subscribe to your view that it has collapsed are those who oppose the agenda of the women's march. There is nothing objective to substantiate your claim that it has collapsed.
    - Mikeb85 10y ago
      What did the women's march accomplish? Any policy changes? Any social reform? Frankly, it was rather absurd seeing posters of a woman in a hijab as a poster for freedom and equality considering the hijab is a tool of social oppression. In the Middle East women's rights groups protest against the hijab, not for it. Not to mention it did get hijacked by groups with disparate agendas. At the end of the day, it's already been forgotten and accomplished nothing.
      - breatheoften 10y ago
        If it has been forgotten than why are we talking about it? I challenge you to support the argument that your perception that the movement accomplished nothing is unbiased. The reality is that the movement hasn't ended yet. It was the largest protest in American history and there will be fruits born from that. The opposition party is without any official power in government at the moment so if your expectation was an immediate sea change in policy that seems an unrealistically high standard. Other areas (that carry real effects) are already affected however -- that kind of political expression has many soft power effects. Companies are marketing to that demographic (rather than sticking to non-political messaging), government officials who disagree with illegal policy orders presented to them are seeing and feeling support from a large segment of the population to oppose and resist. Many local governments are seeing sharp increases in community participation at local events. Congress critters are being stalked by opposition supporters, cancelling public speaking events sometimes, their call centers are overwhelmed with dissenting opinions. This stuff is going to matter despite your promises of non-effect. You frame an ongoing movement as entirely impotent and by doing so you very much ignore the important reality of soft power in government and politics.
transient5648 10y ago
> The aim isn't to get a rise out of them, it is to split them. Not necessarily. 4chan often trolls other communities (and even other boards within 4chan) not out of deep opposition but for sports. Certainly, trolling or related tactics can be used to further some agenda, but that is not essential to the trolling itself. It can also be used to require some conformance to community rules. If no moderation tools are available to the users then they can simply tell outsiders that they are not welcome by trolling them. That does not mean they try to disrupt or divide the community from which the outsider came. No, they're actually defending their own community. Of course getting other communities to tear themselves apart would be "mission accomplished" for a troll, but that does not mean it is the end-goal, just one possible outcome.

by alva 10y ago

breatheoften 10y ago

I don't think this is at all the mechanism at work. It's much more accurate to think of trollers as spammers -- and the effect they can have on discourse is almost akin to violence as they attack the means by which the mediums they troll could otherwise support meaningful communication. You suppose that variations in response to trolling from Religious communities vs liberal communities has some fundamental relationship to the intrinsic properties of those communities. In reality, I think trolling is a weapon and the difference you see in how these communities respond reflects the difference in the amount of ammunition spent on trolling those communities vs the size and efficacy of any agenda that tried to counter the influence of trolls.

alva 10y ago
One example might help reinforce my case. Note to commenters, I am not making any judgements on these communities, these are just my observations. A hard left community which is heavily invested in identity politics is inherently vulnerable to this type of destruction. It is in the DNA of the movement. I have witnessed this in many groups. Group starts building large number of members for a cause, lets call it "Womans March". Initially all unified behind a common cause. Exploit identity politics to break it. "Wow, I can't believe ALL the admins are white woman" "smh, these people need to stay in their lane and lets POC take charge" "my trans* friend was just messaged by an admin telling them "men" aren't allowed" "some of the people on this page are too ghetto" As long as the culture is focused on grievance and division, they will divide and divide with a miniscule amount of pushing. Resentment and infighting grow almost exponentially. A group of 5 co-ordinated trolls using these tactics collapse massive communities over and over again. You would not believe how effective it is. These are all old CIA tactics, unclassified manuals are studied and disseminated.
- breatheoften 10y ago
  I think the actual explanatory power from your example comes from the fact that these are communities whose purpose is to grow over time. The coordinated trolling is a means to attack that growth by destroying the means of legitimate discourse (particularly around any form of disagreement) and by recruiting more trolls (who aren't part of the original 5 coordinators but who might share the goal of the coordinators). The efficacy of this tactic has nothing to do with the properties of the community being attacked (other than that it's a community that exists to grow) and everything to do with the properties and volume of the attackers. Additionally -- I think the women's march example undermines your claim. Despite significant coordinated deployment of these tactics, the group became quite large indeed. The only people who now subscribe to your view that it has collapsed are those who oppose the agenda of the women's march. There is nothing objective to substantiate your claim that it has collapsed.
  - Mikeb85 10y ago
    What did the women's march accomplish? Any policy changes? Any social reform? Frankly, it was rather absurd seeing posters of a woman in a hijab as a poster for freedom and equality considering the hijab is a tool of social oppression. In the Middle East women's rights groups protest against the hijab, not for it. Not to mention it did get hijacked by groups with disparate agendas. At the end of the day, it's already been forgotten and accomplished nothing.
    - breatheoften 10y ago
      If it has been forgotten than why are we talking about it? I challenge you to support the argument that your perception that the movement accomplished nothing is unbiased. The reality is that the movement hasn't ended yet. It was the largest protest in American history and there will be fruits born from that. The opposition party is without any official power in government at the moment so if your expectation was an immediate sea change in policy that seems an unrealistically high standard. Other areas (that carry real effects) are already affected however -- that kind of political expression has many soft power effects. Companies are marketing to that demographic (rather than sticking to non-political messaging), government officials who disagree with illegal policy orders presented to them are seeing and feeling support from a large segment of the population to oppose and resist. Many local governments are seeing sharp increases in community participation at local events. Congress critters are being stalked by opposition supporters, cancelling public speaking events sometimes, their call centers are overwhelmed with dissenting opinions. This stuff is going to matter despite your promises of non-effect. You frame an ongoing movement as entirely impotent and by doing so you very much ignore the important reality of soft power in government and politics.

transient5648 10y ago

> The aim isn't to get a rise out of them, it is to split them. Not necessarily. 4chan often trolls other communities (and even other boards within 4chan) not out of deep opposition but for sports. Certainly, trolling or related tactics can be used to further some agenda, but that is not essential to the trolling itself. It can also be used to require some conformance to community rules. If no moderation tools are available to the users then they can simply tell outsiders that they are not welcome by trolling them. That does not mean they try to disrupt or divide the community from which the outsider came. No, they're actually defending their own community. Of course getting other communities to tear themselves apart would be "mission accomplished" for a troll, but that does not mean it is the end-goal, just one possible outcome.