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It's subtle point nvahalik is making. If I don't believe in any kind of higher power, then by definition humanity is the highest power, and more specifically,

• Jedd 10y ago
  I wouldn't say subtle so much as misguided. > If I don't believe in any kind of higher power, then by definition humanity is the highest power ... We may need to start defining some terms here. Power, for starters. Lots of things in my life have power - government, partner, family, wall sockets. I'm not sure any of them could be considered 'highest', especially in the sense that Christians may use that word -- whereby it's an entity (power) that created all other powers, and therefore has ultimate, unassailable power. > and more specifically, I am the highest power in my own life. Clearly this isn't the case. (Mind, this does not equate to: 'Therefore, god(s)') > Atheism is a faith that elevates Me to the status of God in my experience of life. Another word to define -- faith. If you're using it in a sense akin to 'believing in something without any evidence', then atheists tend to eschew the concept and practice of faith. Conflating the word 'faith' in the way that religious people use it to defend why they think something that they can't adequately substantiate, with the reasons that atheists think there probably isn't a god, is disingenuous.
  • nate_meurer 10y ago
    > Lots of things in my life have power - government, partner, family, wall sockets. I'm not sure any of them could be considered 'highest', especially in the sense that Christians may use that word -- whereby it's an entity (power) that created all other powers, and therefore has ultimate, unassailable power. Um, I think that was exactly my point. You don't recognize the existence of consciousness or intelligence that is either greater than or antecedent to yours. Obviously I'm speaking of "power" in the religious sense, not in a legal or political sense. You are subject, ultimately, only to your own judgment. For what reason would any other representative of the human species be fit to judge you on a moral basis, or to contemplate your use or purpose for existing, other than that you have chosen to submit to such judgment? That choice and burden is yours alone. You are your own god. Denying that much celebrated aspect of atheism is what's disingenuous. I know many atheists are greatly offended by the use of the word "faith" to describe the conviction that humans are the very apex of intelligence/consciousness, and that we and the universe that contains us can't have been designed and coded by another intelligent force. What evidence can there possibly be for or against this conviction, even if only lightly held (which would make you more of an agnostic than an atheist)? And given that, what else is there beside faith to guide either one of us?
    • Jedd 10y ago
      > You don't recognize the existence of consciousness or intelligence that is either greater than or antecedent to yours. Well that's not true. I've met a number of people that I have determined have a greater intelligence than me -- and that number shoots up once you include people who I know only through their work. On a slightly fuzzier front, I know people with laudable ethics / morals that may indeed surpass my own working set. There's nothing supernatural about that assessment. And I don't think I'm subject exclusively to my own judgement. Speculating on the 'use or purpose for existing' pre-supposes that such a use or purpose exists, or rather, that there is a requirement that it exists (as an externality to myself or otherwise) with an implication that absent such an externally-provided use or purpose, we'd be stuck, twiddling our opposable thumbs, with nothing useful or interesting to do. > I know many atheists are greatly offended by the use of the word "faith" to describe the conviction that humans are the very apex of intelligence/consciousness ... This may be attributable to atheists tending to be well-informed on evolution -- consequently inclined to twitch at this assertion. At the least, we'd want to insert an 'as of right now' after the word 'apex'. The idea that humans are the very apex and there is no further progress / evolution to be had is very much the required position of a theist, and not how atheists tend to view the world. > ... and that we and the universe that contains us can't have been designed and coded by another intelligent force. I think most atheists (again, I really can't be speaking for them all) don't say it can't, just that it's spectacularly unlikely that it was. Just from a statistical angle, given there have been some tens of thousands of religions generated over the millennia, the chance of any given religion being the right one is low. As noted by TFA, the history of this religion (and of course it's not unique in this regard) being plagued by logical incongruities & inconsistencies, borrowing heavily from early mythologies, having minimal corroborating evidence, etc -- it doesn't increase the odds of being more right than the rest. > And given that, what else is there beside faith to guide either one of us? Heh! I think at this point I'm going to have to defer to Stephen Roberts[1] "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." [1] http://freelink.wildlink.com/quote_history.php http://freelink.wildlink.com/quote_history.php
      • 10y ago