4 ms·

I think lately his illness, but I think he peaked in popularity just before he stated his belief that it is multiple times (100 times?) more efficient to help r

by kpil 10y ago

I think lately his illness, but I think he peaked in popularity just before he stated his belief that it is multiple times (100 times?) more efficient to help refugees from the Middle East and Africa in their home countries or local region rather than he to help them in Sweden. This was a position held only by the nationalistic (and at least partially racist) political party Sverigedemokraterna, but I think he simply looked at the numbers and saw that the cost for refugees in Sweden is at least 5 (10?) times higher than UNHCR's total budget, while helping only 1-2% of the number of refugees compared to what UNHCR administers. If I remember correctly, he might have mentioned that at a big fundraiser supporting immigration which was a truth no one wanted to hear, as the "story" as told by media at the time conveyed that the middle east and Africa is inhabitable in general, without exception. He was remarkably absent in the news after that, almost like an embarrassed silence, but I guess he probably was diagnosed with his illness less than 6 months after that, so I might have been over-interpreting the coincidence. I might add that Sweden is a very small country with a very strong group-mentality in regards to political ideas and opinions ( and other areas, like fashion). Political triangulation would have arrived at almost unrestricted immigration at the time.

mistermann 10y ago
> he stated his belief that it is multiple times (100 times?) more efficient to help refugees from the Middle East and Africa in their home countries or local region rather than he to help them in Sweden. Does anyone have a citation for this, I'm not able to find anything on google.
- kpil 10y ago
  I don't know your Swedish skills, but here is a follow up interview: https://www.svd.se/man-hade-kunnat-salja-asylratten-for-20-000-spann/om/svenskt-flyktingmottagande https://www.svd.se/man-hade-kunnat-salja-asylratten-for-20-0... He quotes 10 SEK / day compared to 500 SEK per day. He is a bit defensive and says that he his not arguing against helping people in Sweden, just that Sweden as a consequence is NOT spending the money elsewhere.
  - mistermann 10y ago
    Unfortunately my Swedish skills are nonexistent....so was that basically a direct quote, 10 SEK / day to house a refugee in a camp vs 500 SEK / day to accommodate them in Sweden? It's pretty shocking that no one seems to have done any kind of a financial analysis on helping refugees in their local region vs helping them after migrating to western countries, you'd think that would be one of the first steps.
    - m_mueller 10y ago
      I think 'implementation details' are important though. What was Rosling's vision for Sweden in particular or the UN in general to do massively more help right there in the Levant? Don't refugees flee because of direct threats to their life an/or because their lifelihood got obliterated? Wouldn't 'help them in their home country' basically mean a ground invasion as a first step?
      - mistermann 10y ago
        A safe zone, most likely in a neighboring country would definitely be a pre-requisite.
      - kpil 10y ago
        Not really. It is no problem to help financing the already existing UNHCR funded missions in Turkey, Pakistan, Lebanon, Iran, Ethiopia, Jordan, etc that all are close neighbors to conflict zones. Perhaps surprisingly, as it is not following the narrative conveyed by media, it is also possible to help internal refugees for instance in Republic of the Congo, Iraq, Nigeria, Afghanistan and even parts of Syria. http://reporting.unhcr.org/node/2530 http://reporting.unhcr.org/node/2530
        m_mueller 10y ago
        My point is, would it really be as simple as just financing these missions, i.e. is money actually the limiting factor? I was under the impression that (a) the political situation in these locations and (b) actual boots on the ground to secure these places are what's limiting the efforts. Furthermore, this doesn't seem to take the economic situation under consideration. Say you've set up a well run refugee camp in Jordan, with all the safety and comforts needed for a few hundred thousand Syrians or so. Now what? Syria will take many years to be a safe home for them again, if ever considering that Assad seems to be fully regaining control (which again is due to a lack of concerted military intervention as far as I see it). Most Syrian refugees certainly want a way to join the economy again, and Europe still seems their best bet - so a well run camp may smoothen the process, but I'd argue they'd still show up in European countries sooner or later, with roughly the same funds needed.
johansch 10y ago
I agree wholeheartedly. He made this "mistake" of stating correct facts in a broken debate that is emotional. And like clockwork the Swedish "establishment" shut him out of the spotlight. ... and yet here we have the main political editor of the largest Swedish tabloid (aka main representative of the people who feel rather than think): http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/8dn4A/lamnar-oss-nar-vi-behover-honom-som-mest http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/8dn4A/lamnar-oss-nar-vi-... wherein she basically reclaims his legacy for her own use. This is.. rich.
- kpil 10y ago
  That was almost like 1984. Surrealistic to come from someone that have dismissed "numbers" and "statistics" (with quotes) as irrelevant distractions from the emotional narrative.
- throwaway234983 10y ago
  > And like clockwork the Swedish "establishment" shut him out of the spotlight. What does that even mean? You can start by showing a single piece of evidence to that fact. He made the supposedly controversial speech in September 2015 [0]. In October he was on TV4 [1]. In December he was on the news on SVT [2] and had his own "talk about whatever you want" radio episodes on SR [3] (both state media). He was on TV4 again in May of 2016 [4]. During 2016 he was mentioned over 100 times by the nation wide newspapers [5]. I'm sure you can find a lot more if you just look. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMunEP80YRE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMunEP80YRE [2] http://www.svtplay.se/klipp/5385280/hans-rosling-det-finns-inga-typiska-40-talister http://www.svtplay.se/klipp/5385280/hans-rosling-det-finns-i... [3] http://sverigesradio.se/sida/avsnitt/654765?programid=2071 http://sverigesradio.se/sida/avsnitt/654765?programid=2071 [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQWDpfpkGvw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQWDpfpkGvw [5] http://tidningar.kb.se/?q=%22Hans%20Rosling%22&from=2016-01-01&to=2016-12-31 http://tidningar.kb.se/?q=%22Hans%20Rosling%22&from=2016-01-...
- Natanael_L 10y ago
  How about let him speak for himself? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13596940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13596940
Natanael_L 10y ago
This is pretty inaccurate. He didn't say we should stop accepting immigrants or significantly cut the immigration. http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/kulturdebatt/kristofer-ahlstrom-lat-inte-hans-rosling-kidnappas-av-extremhogern/ http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/kulturdebatt/kristofer-ahlstrom... https://motargument.se/2015/10/06/myt-hans-rosling-ger-stod-at-sd/ https://motargument.se/2015/10/06/myt-hans-rosling-ger-stod-... Rosling's real argument was that we should fix the accounting behind it all, and to also give more foreign aid.

by kpil 10y ago

mistermann 10y ago

> he stated his belief that it is multiple times (100 times?) more efficient to help refugees from the Middle East and Africa in their home countries or local region rather than he to help them in Sweden. Does anyone have a citation for this, I'm not able to find anything on google.

kpil 10y ago
I don't know your Swedish skills, but here is a follow up interview: https://www.svd.se/man-hade-kunnat-salja-asylratten-for-20-000-spann/om/svenskt-flyktingmottagande https://www.svd.se/man-hade-kunnat-salja-asylratten-for-20-0... He quotes 10 SEK / day compared to 500 SEK per day. He is a bit defensive and says that he his not arguing against helping people in Sweden, just that Sweden as a consequence is NOT spending the money elsewhere.
- mistermann 10y ago
  Unfortunately my Swedish skills are nonexistent....so was that basically a direct quote, 10 SEK / day to house a refugee in a camp vs 500 SEK / day to accommodate them in Sweden? It's pretty shocking that no one seems to have done any kind of a financial analysis on helping refugees in their local region vs helping them after migrating to western countries, you'd think that would be one of the first steps.
  - m_mueller 10y ago
    I think 'implementation details' are important though. What was Rosling's vision for Sweden in particular or the UN in general to do massively more help right there in the Levant? Don't refugees flee because of direct threats to their life an/or because their lifelihood got obliterated? Wouldn't 'help them in their home country' basically mean a ground invasion as a first step?
    - mistermann 10y ago
      A safe zone, most likely in a neighboring country would definitely be a pre-requisite.
    - kpil 10y ago
      Not really. It is no problem to help financing the already existing UNHCR funded missions in Turkey, Pakistan, Lebanon, Iran, Ethiopia, Jordan, etc that all are close neighbors to conflict zones. Perhaps surprisingly, as it is not following the narrative conveyed by media, it is also possible to help internal refugees for instance in Republic of the Congo, Iraq, Nigeria, Afghanistan and even parts of Syria. http://reporting.unhcr.org/node/2530 http://reporting.unhcr.org/node/2530
      - m_mueller 10y ago
        My point is, would it really be as simple as just financing these missions, i.e. is money actually the limiting factor? I was under the impression that (a) the political situation in these locations and (b) actual boots on the ground to secure these places are what's limiting the efforts. Furthermore, this doesn't seem to take the economic situation under consideration. Say you've set up a well run refugee camp in Jordan, with all the safety and comforts needed for a few hundred thousand Syrians or so. Now what? Syria will take many years to be a safe home for them again, if ever considering that Assad seems to be fully regaining control (which again is due to a lack of concerted military intervention as far as I see it). Most Syrian refugees certainly want a way to join the economy again, and Europe still seems their best bet - so a well run camp may smoothen the process, but I'd argue they'd still show up in European countries sooner or later, with roughly the same funds needed.

johansch 10y ago

I agree wholeheartedly. He made this "mistake" of stating correct facts in a broken debate that is emotional. And like clockwork the Swedish "establishment" shut him out of the spotlight. ... and yet here we have the main political editor of the largest Swedish tabloid (aka main representative of the people who feel rather than think): http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/8dn4A/lamnar-oss-nar-vi-behover-honom-som-mest http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/8dn4A/lamnar-oss-nar-vi-... wherein she basically reclaims his legacy for her own use. This is.. rich.

kpil 10y ago
That was almost like 1984. Surrealistic to come from someone that have dismissed "numbers" and "statistics" (with quotes) as irrelevant distractions from the emotional narrative.
throwaway234983 10y ago
> And like clockwork the Swedish "establishment" shut him out of the spotlight. What does that even mean? You can start by showing a single piece of evidence to that fact. He made the supposedly controversial speech in September 2015 [0]. In October he was on TV4 [1]. In December he was on the news on SVT [2] and had his own "talk about whatever you want" radio episodes on SR [3] (both state media). He was on TV4 again in May of 2016 [4]. During 2016 he was mentioned over 100 times by the nation wide newspapers [5]. I'm sure you can find a lot more if you just look. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMunEP80YRE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMunEP80YRE [2] http://www.svtplay.se/klipp/5385280/hans-rosling-det-finns-inga-typiska-40-talister http://www.svtplay.se/klipp/5385280/hans-rosling-det-finns-i... [3] http://sverigesradio.se/sida/avsnitt/654765?programid=2071 http://sverigesradio.se/sida/avsnitt/654765?programid=2071 [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQWDpfpkGvw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQWDpfpkGvw [5] http://tidningar.kb.se/?q=%22Hans%20Rosling%22&from=2016-01-01&to=2016-12-31 http://tidningar.kb.se/?q=%22Hans%20Rosling%22&from=2016-01-...
Natanael_L 10y ago
How about let him speak for himself? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13596940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13596940

Natanael_L 10y ago

This is pretty inaccurate. He didn't say we should stop accepting immigrants or significantly cut the immigration. http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/kulturdebatt/kristofer-ahlstrom-lat-inte-hans-rosling-kidnappas-av-extremhogern/ http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/kulturdebatt/kristofer-ahlstrom... https://motargument.se/2015/10/06/myt-hans-rosling-ger-stod-at-sd/ https://motargument.se/2015/10/06/myt-hans-rosling-ger-stod-... Rosling's real argument was that we should fix the accounting behind it all, and to also give more foreign aid.