4 ms·

> Well, since there are no 'Christian rituals' in the New Testament, because Christianity did not exist at the time, I'm going to assume that you have not read

by redial 10y ago

> Well, since there are no 'Christian rituals' in the New Testament, because Christianity did not exist at the time, I'm going to assume that you have not read it. See? classic case of cherry picking. You probably don't consider baptism a ritual, or the allegory of Yom Kippur a ritual. Or drinking wine and eating bread. You just read it like you want to. > And if you think it's about a (cherry picked) handful of similarities and borrowed 'magic powers' story bits like a'water into wine' or a 'Horus-like nativity story', then you're missing the point anyhow. Yes, forget that all the miracles of Jesus were "borrowed" from earlier gods, forget that all the life of Jesus is a carefully scripted retelling of the tales of the old testament. In fact, lest forget all the pieces that don't fit with your uniqueness narrative. After all, the point of the book is what you said it is, there is no one in the world who would read it any other way.

nate_meurer 10y ago
Baptism, wine and bread (aka communion), etc -- these are not religiously necessary rituals in Christianity, not in the way they are to Catholicism (which I think can be considered a completely different religion). And they don't compare to rituals of other religions which are necessary for salvation/enlightenment/whatever. Going back to what edblarney said above, "Jesus had two commands; love God and love one another". Christianity, in its purest form, is unique in that it gives salvation away completely free. We are not required to do anything, only to believe that we require forgiveness and to have faith that God will give it freely. The act of Jesus' sacrifice being a demonstration that in fact God has already forgiven every one of us, and that all we need do is recognize it. If you believe that, you will, naturally want to live your life according to some notion of christian ethics, but striving to do "good" in whatever way you like is in no way a requirement for salvation. All the rituals -- baptism, spiritual giftings, recognition of the sabbath, circumcision -- there are a ton of them -- are trappings of religious authoritarianism if they are incorporated as requirements for salvation. I know lots of churches and denomination do this (or come perilously close), and it is quite unbiblical.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Baptism, wine and bread (aka communion), etc -- these are not religiously necessary rituals in Christianity, not in the way they are to Catholicism (which I think can be considered a completely different religion). By the usual restrictive mainstream definition of Christianity by reference to the early creeds, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, (most) Protestant Churches, and a number of independent (often ancient) churches, many of which are styled "Catholic" but have no current and often no past association with Rome, are all Christian.
  - nate_meurer 10y ago
    True, and the usual definitions are useful in many ways, but I would argue that the Catholic church (big "C", as opposed to the various catholic structures and practices found in many non-Catholic denominations) has larded up their religion to the point that it's barely recognizable as christianity. The idols (incendiary term, I know), the various levels of hell, the duties and bribes to church officials in return for forgiveness. A preponderance of Catholic doctrine and church structure has nothing to do with Christ's promise of utterly free redemption. I know nothing about the Orthodox churches.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > I would argue that the Catholic church (big "C", as opposed to the various catholic structures and practices found in many non-Catholic denominations) has larded up their religion to the point that it's barely recognizable as christianity. You probably mean the Roman Catholic Church (the usual particular name for the Church composed of 24 sui iuris particular churches united by various unifying factors, including recognizing the Bishop of Rome—the same one that is head of state of Vatican City—as head of the church.) Big-C Catholic is a bad descriptor for that, because there are quite a lot of big-C Catholic Churches which are not in union with Rome, and have varying degrees of dissimilarity in theology, ritual, and law when compared to the Roman Catholic Church. > The idols (incendiary term, I know), the various levels of hell, the duties and bribes to church officials in return for forgiveness. Aside from the false bit about idols, you've mentioned, in order, a feature of a popular work of medieval literature that has never been a matter of Catholic doctrine, and what seems (though it's hard to tell what specifically it intends to refer to) to be a oblique reference to a combination of abusive practices and erroneous (compared to the official doctrine) teachings about indulgences that were frequently criticized by Church leaders prior to Luther and fairly definitively addressed in and shortly after the Council of Trent. > I know nothing about the Orthodox churches. The same appears to be true of the Roman Catholic Church.
edblarney 10y ago
Ok, you have 'baptism' as one ritual in 500 pages, which by the way, is originally a Jewish thing anyhow. Now that's exactly what I am calling 'cherry picking'. As (barely) a Protestant - I don't see any of those other things as 'rituals' of any relevance. If you throw in 'wine and bread' - you have two. Wow. Two whole rituals. I'd argue that it's you that are 'seeing what you want to see'. Nobody would deny that many elements of Jesus story are borrowed for other narratives. Just as nobody would imply that the New Testament is 'just an amalgamation of a bunch of other stuff'. Ironically, both examples you gave: 'Baptism' and 'Wine and Bread' - are not based on some 'borrowed ideas' - they are effectively original in their own context.
- redial 10y ago
  You were the one saying there were no rituals, I just mentioned two because it's been a while since I've had to argue this stuff. By the way, praying is also a ritual, as is Saving the sabbath (still performed by some christian denominations). And baptism being jewish (and not only jewish but practiced by many other faiths at the time) just proves further my point of unoriginality. And when there is a whole branch of christianity founded on the baptism ritual, the Baptists, I say you are the one cherrypicking the parts of the bible you want to ignore to fit your narrative. > Ok, you have 'baptism' as one ritual in 500 pages, which by the way, is originally a Jewish thing anyhow. > Ironically, both examples you gave: 'Baptism' and 'Wine and Bread' - are not based on some 'borrowed ideas' - they are effectively original in their own context. This is the main problem. You contradict yourself on every point.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> You probably don't consider baptism a ritual Baptism is a ritual, but the only baptism in the Bible (that I can recall) is pre-Christian. It has a relation to the Christian ritual, but is not a Christian ritual. > or the allegory of Yom Kippur a ritual. Not a Christian ritual. > Or drinking wine and eating bread. The Last Supper may be the closest thing to a Christian ritual in the Bible, since that account is he really held to be the establishment of a key Christian ritual (though not generally as an instance of the ritual this established.)
- redial 10y ago
  > > or the allegory of Yom Kippur a ritual. > Not a Christian ritual. Yom Kippur is not christian per se, what I was talking about is the allegory of Yom Kippur, namely easter and the killing of Jesus in the name of the lamb that is "celebrated" each year.

by redial 10y ago

nate_meurer 10y ago

Baptism, wine and bread (aka communion), etc -- these are not religiously necessary rituals in Christianity, not in the way they are to Catholicism (which I think can be considered a completely different religion). And they don't compare to rituals of other religions which are necessary for salvation/enlightenment/whatever. Going back to what edblarney said above, "Jesus had two commands; love God and love one another". Christianity, in its purest form, is unique in that it gives salvation away completely free. We are not required to do anything, only to believe that we require forgiveness and to have faith that God will give it freely. The act of Jesus' sacrifice being a demonstration that in fact God has already forgiven every one of us, and that all we need do is recognize it. If you believe that, you will, naturally want to live your life according to some notion of christian ethics, but striving to do "good" in whatever way you like is in no way a requirement for salvation. All the rituals -- baptism, spiritual giftings, recognition of the sabbath, circumcision -- there are a ton of them -- are trappings of religious authoritarianism if they are incorporated as requirements for salvation. I know lots of churches and denomination do this (or come perilously close), and it is quite unbiblical.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> Baptism, wine and bread (aka communion), etc -- these are not religiously necessary rituals in Christianity, not in the way they are to Catholicism (which I think can be considered a completely different religion). By the usual restrictive mainstream definition of Christianity by reference to the early creeds, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, (most) Protestant Churches, and a number of independent (often ancient) churches, many of which are styled "Catholic" but have no current and often no past association with Rome, are all Christian.
- nate_meurer 10y ago
  True, and the usual definitions are useful in many ways, but I would argue that the Catholic church (big "C", as opposed to the various catholic structures and practices found in many non-Catholic denominations) has larded up their religion to the point that it's barely recognizable as christianity. The idols (incendiary term, I know), the various levels of hell, the duties and bribes to church officials in return for forgiveness. A preponderance of Catholic doctrine and church structure has nothing to do with Christ's promise of utterly free redemption. I know nothing about the Orthodox churches.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > I would argue that the Catholic church (big "C", as opposed to the various catholic structures and practices found in many non-Catholic denominations) has larded up their religion to the point that it's barely recognizable as christianity. You probably mean the Roman Catholic Church (the usual particular name for the Church composed of 24 sui iuris particular churches united by various unifying factors, including recognizing the Bishop of Rome—the same one that is head of state of Vatican City—as head of the church.) Big-C Catholic is a bad descriptor for that, because there are quite a lot of big-C Catholic Churches which are not in union with Rome, and have varying degrees of dissimilarity in theology, ritual, and law when compared to the Roman Catholic Church. > The idols (incendiary term, I know), the various levels of hell, the duties and bribes to church officials in return for forgiveness. Aside from the false bit about idols, you've mentioned, in order, a feature of a popular work of medieval literature that has never been a matter of Catholic doctrine, and what seems (though it's hard to tell what specifically it intends to refer to) to be a oblique reference to a combination of abusive practices and erroneous (compared to the official doctrine) teachings about indulgences that were frequently criticized by Church leaders prior to Luther and fairly definitively addressed in and shortly after the Council of Trent. > I know nothing about the Orthodox churches. The same appears to be true of the Roman Catholic Church.

edblarney 10y ago

Ok, you have 'baptism' as one ritual in 500 pages, which by the way, is originally a Jewish thing anyhow. Now that's exactly what I am calling 'cherry picking'. As (barely) a Protestant - I don't see any of those other things as 'rituals' of any relevance. If you throw in 'wine and bread' - you have two. Wow. Two whole rituals. I'd argue that it's you that are 'seeing what you want to see'. Nobody would deny that many elements of Jesus story are borrowed for other narratives. Just as nobody would imply that the New Testament is 'just an amalgamation of a bunch of other stuff'. Ironically, both examples you gave: 'Baptism' and 'Wine and Bread' - are not based on some 'borrowed ideas' - they are effectively original in their own context.

redial 10y ago
You were the one saying there were no rituals, I just mentioned two because it's been a while since I've had to argue this stuff. By the way, praying is also a ritual, as is Saving the sabbath (still performed by some christian denominations). And baptism being jewish (and not only jewish but practiced by many other faiths at the time) just proves further my point of unoriginality. And when there is a whole branch of christianity founded on the baptism ritual, the Baptists, I say you are the one cherrypicking the parts of the bible you want to ignore to fit your narrative. > Ok, you have 'baptism' as one ritual in 500 pages, which by the way, is originally a Jewish thing anyhow. > Ironically, both examples you gave: 'Baptism' and 'Wine and Bread' - are not based on some 'borrowed ideas' - they are effectively original in their own context. This is the main problem. You contradict yourself on every point.

dragonwriter 10y ago

> You probably don't consider baptism a ritual Baptism is a ritual, but the only baptism in the Bible (that I can recall) is pre-Christian. It has a relation to the Christian ritual, but is not a Christian ritual. > or the allegory of Yom Kippur a ritual. Not a Christian ritual. > Or drinking wine and eating bread. The Last Supper may be the closest thing to a Christian ritual in the Bible, since that account is he really held to be the establishment of a key Christian ritual (though not generally as an instance of the ritual this established.)

redial 10y ago
> > or the allegory of Yom Kippur a ritual. > Not a Christian ritual. Yom Kippur is not christian per se, what I was talking about is the allegory of Yom Kippur, namely easter and the killing of Jesus in the name of the lamb that is "celebrated" each year.