6 ms·

"You keep wanting to make christianity something special when in reality it is just another amalgamation of beliefs" Well, since there are no 'Christian ritual

"You keep wanting to make christianity something special when in reality it is just another amalgamation of beliefs" Well, since there are no 'Christian rituals' in the New Testament, because Christianity did not exist at the time, I'm going to assume that you have not read it. From cover to cover, there's nothing Greek, Roman or Egyptian that resembles the New Testament, it doesn't even resemble the Old Testament. Arguably, it's closer to the Koran, or other Eastern works. And if you think it's about a (cherry picked) handful of similarities and borrowed 'magic powers' story bits like a'water into wine' or a 'Horus-like nativity story', then you're missing the point anyhow.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> Well, since there are no 'Christian rituals' in the New Testament, because Christianity did not exist at the time At the time of the stories relayed in the Gospels, sure. The rest of the NT, from Acts on—but excluding Revelation—is either narrative about or discussion within the early Christian community. OTOH, I think it is correct that it doesn't describe Christian ritual to any significant degree.
redial 10y ago
> Well, since there are no 'Christian rituals' in the New Testament, because Christianity did not exist at the time, I'm going to assume that you have not read it. See? classic case of cherry picking. You probably don't consider baptism a ritual, or the allegory of Yom Kippur a ritual. Or drinking wine and eating bread. You just read it like you want to. > And if you think it's about a (cherry picked) handful of similarities and borrowed 'magic powers' story bits like a'water into wine' or a 'Horus-like nativity story', then you're missing the point anyhow. Yes, forget that all the miracles of Jesus were "borrowed" from earlier gods, forget that all the life of Jesus is a carefully scripted retelling of the tales of the old testament. In fact, lest forget all the pieces that don't fit with your uniqueness narrative. After all, the point of the book is what you said it is, there is no one in the world who would read it any other way.
- nate_meurer 10y ago
  Baptism, wine and bread (aka communion), etc -- these are not religiously necessary rituals in Christianity, not in the way they are to Catholicism (which I think can be considered a completely different religion). And they don't compare to rituals of other religions which are necessary for salvation/enlightenment/whatever. Going back to what edblarney said above, "Jesus had two commands; love God and love one another". Christianity, in its purest form, is unique in that it gives salvation away completely free. We are not required to do anything, only to believe that we require forgiveness and to have faith that God will give it freely. The act of Jesus' sacrifice being a demonstration that in fact God has already forgiven every one of us, and that all we need do is recognize it. If you believe that, you will, naturally want to live your life according to some notion of christian ethics, but striving to do "good" in whatever way you like is in no way a requirement for salvation. All the rituals -- baptism, spiritual giftings, recognition of the sabbath, circumcision -- there are a ton of them -- are trappings of religious authoritarianism if they are incorporated as requirements for salvation. I know lots of churches and denomination do this (or come perilously close), and it is quite unbiblical.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Baptism, wine and bread (aka communion), etc -- these are not religiously necessary rituals in Christianity, not in the way they are to Catholicism (which I think can be considered a completely different religion). By the usual restrictive mainstream definition of Christianity by reference to the early creeds, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, (most) Protestant Churches, and a number of independent (often ancient) churches, many of which are styled "Catholic" but have no current and often no past association with Rome, are all Christian.
    - nate_meurer 10y ago
      True, and the usual definitions are useful in many ways, but I would argue that the Catholic church (big "C", as opposed to the various catholic structures and practices found in many non-Catholic denominations) has larded up their religion to the point that it's barely recognizable as christianity. The idols (incendiary term, I know), the various levels of hell, the duties and bribes to church officials in return for forgiveness. A preponderance of Catholic doctrine and church structure has nothing to do with Christ's promise of utterly free redemption. I know nothing about the Orthodox churches.

dragonwriter 10y ago

> Well, since there are no 'Christian rituals' in the New Testament, because Christianity did not exist at the time At the time of the stories relayed in the Gospels, sure. The rest of the NT, from Acts on—but excluding Revelation—is either narrative about or discussion within the early Christian community. OTOH, I think it is correct that it doesn't describe Christian ritual to any significant degree.

redial 10y ago

> Well, since there are no 'Christian rituals' in the New Testament, because Christianity did not exist at the time, I'm going to assume that you have not read it. See? classic case of cherry picking. You probably don't consider baptism a ritual, or the allegory of Yom Kippur a ritual. Or drinking wine and eating bread. You just read it like you want to. > And if you think it's about a (cherry picked) handful of similarities and borrowed 'magic powers' story bits like a'water into wine' or a 'Horus-like nativity story', then you're missing the point anyhow. Yes, forget that all the miracles of Jesus were "borrowed" from earlier gods, forget that all the life of Jesus is a carefully scripted retelling of the tales of the old testament. In fact, lest forget all the pieces that don't fit with your uniqueness narrative. After all, the point of the book is what you said it is, there is no one in the world who would read it any other way.

nate_meurer 10y ago
Baptism, wine and bread (aka communion), etc -- these are not religiously necessary rituals in Christianity, not in the way they are to Catholicism (which I think can be considered a completely different religion). And they don't compare to rituals of other religions which are necessary for salvation/enlightenment/whatever. Going back to what edblarney said above, "Jesus had two commands; love God and love one another". Christianity, in its purest form, is unique in that it gives salvation away completely free. We are not required to do anything, only to believe that we require forgiveness and to have faith that God will give it freely. The act of Jesus' sacrifice being a demonstration that in fact God has already forgiven every one of us, and that all we need do is recognize it. If you believe that, you will, naturally want to live your life according to some notion of christian ethics, but striving to do "good" in whatever way you like is in no way a requirement for salvation. All the rituals -- baptism, spiritual giftings, recognition of the sabbath, circumcision -- there are a ton of them -- are trappings of religious authoritarianism if they are incorporated as requirements for salvation. I know lots of churches and denomination do this (or come perilously close), and it is quite unbiblical.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Baptism, wine and bread (aka communion), etc -- these are not religiously necessary rituals in Christianity, not in the way they are to Catholicism (which I think can be considered a completely different religion). By the usual restrictive mainstream definition of Christianity by reference to the early creeds, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, (most) Protestant Churches, and a number of independent (often ancient) churches, many of which are styled "Catholic" but have no current and often no past association with Rome, are all Christian.
  - nate_meurer 10y ago
    True, and the usual definitions are useful in many ways, but I would argue that the Catholic church (big "C", as opposed to the various catholic structures and practices found in many non-Catholic denominations) has larded up their religion to the point that it's barely recognizable as christianity. The idols (incendiary term, I know), the various levels of hell, the duties and bribes to church officials in return for forgiveness. A preponderance of Catholic doctrine and church structure has nothing to do with Christ's promise of utterly free redemption. I know nothing about the Orthodox churches.