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This is exactly why one of my soon-to-be-focuses is Church history. > Another complicating factor is the existence of highly syncretic forms of religion. Are M

This is exactly why one of my soon-to-be-focuses is Church history. > Another complicating factor is the existence of highly syncretic forms of religion. Are Manichaeism (a Gnostic religion, which is to something that's vaguely syncretic of both Christianity and Zoroastrianism) and Druze (a Christian-Gnostic-Muslim syncretism) Christians or not? Why is this complicated? Again, if I call myself something but yet plainly reject or outright act in a manner that goes against the stated doctrines then I am clearly not what I claim. Examples: Cath olicism: Rejects the finished work of Christ by replacing the old sacrifices with a new one (the mass). (Read Hebrews 10). Teaches that man's sin is imputed to them (against what Romans teaches). Mormonism: Actually the most polytheistic religion in the world. (Since there are in an infinite number of gods.) Nestorianism: Confuses Jesus' being and goes against the council of Nicaea. Condemned at two church councils as heresy. > Furthermore, an interesting facet of history is that religions tend to attack heretics far more than they attack heathens. This does seem to continue to the modern day--if you consider atheism to be a religion, then agnosticism (being noncommittal as to the existence of god) is a natural "heresy" of that "religion"--and militant atheists like Dawkins reserve even more anger for agnostics than for Christians. I'm glad you at least acknowledge this. I steal Mohler's term of "worldview" when describing atheism—but in practically every way you have a religion in atheism: you are the god, you have a way of viewing the world, you have "holy books" written by people such as Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens... you get the idea. But yes, it makes sense. I care far more what other people get wrong about my faith who claim to be like me but are not rather than people who don't make that claim...

Jedd 10y ago
> ... but in practically every way you have a religion in atheism: you are the god, you have a way of viewing the world, you have "holy books" written by people such as Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens... you get the idea. While I can't speak for all atheists, I'd suggest that you may be grasping a bit here. Atheists that I've met don't consider themselves a / the god. Having an understanding or a view of the world doesn't require or imply religion. Atheists don't consider any texts to be holy, let alone those written by people proclaiming loudest that there are no holy texts.
- nate_meurer 10y ago
  It's subtle point nvahalik is making. If I don't believe in any kind of higher power, then by definition humanity is the highest power, and more specifically, I am the highest power in my own life. Atheism is a faith that elevates Me to the status of God in my experience of life. Although I may submit to the ethical constructs of the other humans in our society, ultimately I answer to only one consciousness: me. This idea is extraordinarily seductive, as much as any religion. Personally I think it's complete bullshit. I simply refuse to believe that I am the highest power or intelligence or consciousness in any realm. I am not God.
  - Jedd 10y ago
    I wouldn't say subtle so much as misguided. > If I don't believe in any kind of higher power, then by definition humanity is the highest power ... We may need to start defining some terms here. Power, for starters. Lots of things in my life have power - government, partner, family, wall sockets. I'm not sure any of them could be considered 'highest', especially in the sense that Christians may use that word -- whereby it's an entity (power) that created all other powers, and therefore has ultimate, unassailable power. > and more specifically, I am the highest power in my own life. Clearly this isn't the case. (Mind, this does not equate to: 'Therefore, god(s)') > Atheism is a faith that elevates Me to the status of God in my experience of life. Another word to define -- faith. If you're using it in a sense akin to 'believing in something without any evidence', then atheists tend to eschew the concept and practice of faith. Conflating the word 'faith' in the way that religious people use it to defend why they think something that they can't adequately substantiate, with the reasons that atheists think there probably isn't a god, is disingenuous.
    - nate_meurer 10y ago
      > Lots of things in my life have power - government, partner, family, wall sockets. I'm not sure any of them could be considered 'highest', especially in the sense that Christians may use that word -- whereby it's an entity (power) that created all other powers, and therefore has ultimate, unassailable power. Um, I think that was exactly my point. You don't recognize the existence of consciousness or intelligence that is either greater than or antecedent to yours. Obviously I'm speaking of "power" in the religious sense, not in a legal or political sense. You are subject, ultimately, only to your own judgment. For what reason would any other representative of the human species be fit to judge you on a moral basis, or to contemplate your use or purpose for existing, other than that you have chosen to submit to such judgment? That choice and burden is yours alone. You are your own god. Denying that much celebrated aspect of atheism is what's disingenuous. I know many atheists are greatly offended by the use of the word "faith" to describe the conviction that humans are the very apex of intelligence/consciousness, and that we and the universe that contains us can't have been designed and coded by another intelligent force. What evidence can there possibly be for or against this conviction, even if only lightly held (which would make you more of an agnostic than an atheist)? And given that, what else is there beside faith to guide either one of us?

Jedd 10y ago

> ... but in practically every way you have a religion in atheism: you are the god, you have a way of viewing the world, you have "holy books" written by people such as Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens... you get the idea. While I can't speak for all atheists, I'd suggest that you may be grasping a bit here. Atheists that I've met don't consider themselves a / the god. Having an understanding or a view of the world doesn't require or imply religion. Atheists don't consider any texts to be holy, let alone those written by people proclaiming loudest that there are no holy texts.

nate_meurer 10y ago
It's subtle point nvahalik is making. If I don't believe in any kind of higher power, then by definition humanity is the highest power, and more specifically, I am the highest power in my own life. Atheism is a faith that elevates Me to the status of God in my experience of life. Although I may submit to the ethical constructs of the other humans in our society, ultimately I answer to only one consciousness: me. This idea is extraordinarily seductive, as much as any religion. Personally I think it's complete bullshit. I simply refuse to believe that I am the highest power or intelligence or consciousness in any realm. I am not God.
- Jedd 10y ago
  I wouldn't say subtle so much as misguided. > If I don't believe in any kind of higher power, then by definition humanity is the highest power ... We may need to start defining some terms here. Power, for starters. Lots of things in my life have power - government, partner, family, wall sockets. I'm not sure any of them could be considered 'highest', especially in the sense that Christians may use that word -- whereby it's an entity (power) that created all other powers, and therefore has ultimate, unassailable power. > and more specifically, I am the highest power in my own life. Clearly this isn't the case. (Mind, this does not equate to: 'Therefore, god(s)') > Atheism is a faith that elevates Me to the status of God in my experience of life. Another word to define -- faith. If you're using it in a sense akin to 'believing in something without any evidence', then atheists tend to eschew the concept and practice of faith. Conflating the word 'faith' in the way that religious people use it to defend why they think something that they can't adequately substantiate, with the reasons that atheists think there probably isn't a god, is disingenuous.
  - nate_meurer 10y ago
    > Lots of things in my life have power - government, partner, family, wall sockets. I'm not sure any of them could be considered 'highest', especially in the sense that Christians may use that word -- whereby it's an entity (power) that created all other powers, and therefore has ultimate, unassailable power. Um, I think that was exactly my point. You don't recognize the existence of consciousness or intelligence that is either greater than or antecedent to yours. Obviously I'm speaking of "power" in the religious sense, not in a legal or political sense. You are subject, ultimately, only to your own judgment. For what reason would any other representative of the human species be fit to judge you on a moral basis, or to contemplate your use or purpose for existing, other than that you have chosen to submit to such judgment? That choice and burden is yours alone. You are your own god. Denying that much celebrated aspect of atheism is what's disingenuous. I know many atheists are greatly offended by the use of the word "faith" to describe the conviction that humans are the very apex of intelligence/consciousness, and that we and the universe that contains us can't have been designed and coded by another intelligent force. What evidence can there possibly be for or against this conviction, even if only lightly held (which would make you more of an agnostic than an atheist)? And given that, what else is there beside faith to guide either one of us?