5 ms·

Yeah gun deaths in the US vs EU. (Most people from Europe would consider it a completely stupid conversation to continue this far)

yummyfajitas 10y ago
The EU also has far fewer beating deaths, stabbing deaths, etc. Do you attribute that to gun control as well? I'm aware that Europeans have their own unique culture with their own unique unsupported assumptions and myths. That's not really a substitute for evidence. Also, you dodged the question of whether we should ban other things that are vastly more dangerous than guns. Weird.
- dreamfactory2 10y ago
  > The EU also has far fewer beating deaths Irrelevant to guns as you say yourself so why bring it up. You seem generally confused about the distinction between correlation and causation > That's not really a substitute for evidence. Nothing to do with myths or opinions. The numbers speak for themselves > Also, you dodged the question I didn't dodge anything - your whataboutism is in fact dodging so I ignored it
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    You seem generally confused about the distinction between correlation and causation You seem generally confused about how reason works. I provided strong evidence that the causal relationship is {violent tendencies} -> {gun violence, fist violence, knife violence}. Your theory {gun ownership} -> {gun violence} simply does not predict the observed result; it suggests that gun violence should be high, but knife violence should be the same. That's evidence that your theory is false and mine is true. Though I don't think you really care. Incidentally, we can find lots of things that Europe has which the US doesn't, and equally well attribute crime differences to that. For example, the US has lots of blacks and Europe doesn't. But I'm guessing you will dodge the question of whether you support the same conclusion in this case as well. I didn't dodge anything - your whataboutism is in fact dodging so I ignored it It's hardly fact dodging. I assert that you don't really care about danger, all you care about is banning the cultural expressions of cultures you oppose. Dodging a question about other dangerous activities that your own culture favors provides strong evidence that you do, in fact, not really care about danger - only winning some culture war.
    - dreamfactory2 10y ago
      > all you care about is banning the cultural expressions of cultures you oppose Yet more whataboutism and aspergic levels of specious reasoning. There's no theory or speculation required here. The stats are overwhelming and completely unsurprising - high levels of gun ownership = high levels of gun death. Those two numbers are self-evidently not an unrelated random correlation - yet you seem to be claiming that they somehow are.
      - reitanqild 10y ago
        > Yet more whataboutism and aspergic levels of specious reasoning. I find this to be quite far away from the ideals of this site: Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation. Avoid gratuitous negativity. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Furthermore, using the name of a medical condition as an insult insults a whole group of unrelated individuals. > Those two numbers are self-evidently not an unrelated random correlation - yet you seem to be claiming that they somehow are. We have pointed out to you a number of exceptions that should raise serious doubts about the idea that gun ownership drives gun deaths. If this was the case then several countries in Europe would have similar problems, just on a smaller scale.
reitanqild 10y ago
IMO you seem to try to brush of the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you as stupid. That is not good form. We are trying to argue against you in good faith but I must admit I find it frustrating. Edit: FWIW, here is some more data: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm...
- dreamfactory2 10y ago
  > IMO you seem to try to brush of the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you as stupid. Well the numbers are overwhelmingly against you and a smart person would stop digging. Your own figures show that the US is off the charts compared to EU on a) gun ownership b) gun deaths - it's a no brainer and therefore no useful debate on the merits/demerits. (I'm not going to get into US politics and it's really up to them if they want to have more deaths, but even they fall back on 2nd amendment and notions of tradition to try and justify gun ownership.) > That is not good form. Form fits the circumstances I'm afraid.

yummyfajitas 10y ago

The EU also has far fewer beating deaths, stabbing deaths, etc. Do you attribute that to gun control as well? I'm aware that Europeans have their own unique culture with their own unique unsupported assumptions and myths. That's not really a substitute for evidence. Also, you dodged the question of whether we should ban other things that are vastly more dangerous than guns. Weird.

dreamfactory2 10y ago
> The EU also has far fewer beating deaths Irrelevant to guns as you say yourself so why bring it up. You seem generally confused about the distinction between correlation and causation > That's not really a substitute for evidence. Nothing to do with myths or opinions. The numbers speak for themselves > Also, you dodged the question I didn't dodge anything - your whataboutism is in fact dodging so I ignored it
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  You seem generally confused about the distinction between correlation and causation You seem generally confused about how reason works. I provided strong evidence that the causal relationship is {violent tendencies} -> {gun violence, fist violence, knife violence}. Your theory {gun ownership} -> {gun violence} simply does not predict the observed result; it suggests that gun violence should be high, but knife violence should be the same. That's evidence that your theory is false and mine is true. Though I don't think you really care. Incidentally, we can find lots of things that Europe has which the US doesn't, and equally well attribute crime differences to that. For example, the US has lots of blacks and Europe doesn't. But I'm guessing you will dodge the question of whether you support the same conclusion in this case as well. I didn't dodge anything - your whataboutism is in fact dodging so I ignored it It's hardly fact dodging. I assert that you don't really care about danger, all you care about is banning the cultural expressions of cultures you oppose. Dodging a question about other dangerous activities that your own culture favors provides strong evidence that you do, in fact, not really care about danger - only winning some culture war.
  - dreamfactory2 10y ago
    > all you care about is banning the cultural expressions of cultures you oppose Yet more whataboutism and aspergic levels of specious reasoning. There's no theory or speculation required here. The stats are overwhelming and completely unsurprising - high levels of gun ownership = high levels of gun death. Those two numbers are self-evidently not an unrelated random correlation - yet you seem to be claiming that they somehow are.
    - reitanqild 10y ago
      > Yet more whataboutism and aspergic levels of specious reasoning. I find this to be quite far away from the ideals of this site: Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation. Avoid gratuitous negativity. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Furthermore, using the name of a medical condition as an insult insults a whole group of unrelated individuals. > Those two numbers are self-evidently not an unrelated random correlation - yet you seem to be claiming that they somehow are. We have pointed out to you a number of exceptions that should raise serious doubts about the idea that gun ownership drives gun deaths. If this was the case then several countries in Europe would have similar problems, just on a smaller scale.

reitanqild 10y ago

IMO you seem to try to brush of the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you as stupid. That is not good form. We are trying to argue against you in good faith but I must admit I find it frustrating. Edit: FWIW, here is some more data: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm...

dreamfactory2 10y ago
> IMO you seem to try to brush of the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you as stupid. Well the numbers are overwhelmingly against you and a smart person would stop digging. Your own figures show that the US is off the charts compared to EU on a) gun ownership b) gun deaths - it's a no brainer and therefore no useful debate on the merits/demerits. (I'm not going to get into US politics and it's really up to them if they want to have more deaths, but even they fall back on 2nd amendment and notions of tradition to try and justify gun ownership.) > That is not good form. Form fits the circumstances I'm afraid.