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Thanks for the feedback! 1. We know the UI needs work and have plans to improve it. We are very aware that webkeys are not user-friendly; they were always mean

by kentonv 10y ago

Thanks for the feedback! 1. We know the UI needs work and have plans to improve it. We are very aware that webkeys are not user-friendly; they were always meant as a stopgap measure while we build better UI. Some things about mobile here: https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm/tree/master/roadmap/platform/mobile https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm/tree/master/roadma... 2. The amount of work an app port requires varies a lot depending on the type of app. Self-contained apps that don't talk to the outside world can often be ported in a few minutes. But, indeed, some apps need work to integrate with the appropriate Sandstorm APIs. We've been working to make this easier by, for example, setting up an HTTP proxy inside the app which can make communicating with external OAuth services mostly transparent, while still respecting the Sandstorm permission model. With better tools we think we can automate most things, we just haven't gotten there yet. 3. There are multiple Sandstorm apps which let you post e.g. blogs with no Sandstorm UI frame around it. We have some features in-progress which extend this to more apps. But note that part of the goal of Sandstorm is to generalize a lot of the UI such that apps don't have to repeatedly build the same things, like login, access control, notifications, etc. We need to hang that UI somewhere, hence the need for that frame. But we have ideas that will make it look a lot more like an integrated part of the app UI in the future. 4. We dogfood a lot. We write design docs in Etherpad, manage tasks in Wekan, etc. Our github, google groups, and IRC existed before Sandstorm was functional. The main reason we haven't switched over is because switching is costly and it seems like there are better things we could do with our time.

educar 10y ago
I apologize for not thanking you for the project and just criticizing. Thanks for the amazing project, Kenton. I meant for it all to be constructive and I hope you take it well. About 4), please do consider the fact that this is the exact same issue most of your users face. We have existing wordpress blogs, forum that we would like to migrate but cannot. Most apps have import/export which is broken (including wordpress which is supposedly mature) :/
- kentonv 10y ago
  I agree, import/export in Sandstorm rarely works today, and that's a problem. It's one of those things that we've wanted to address but haven't been able to get to, because there are so many things. But we're getting close on this one. We recently made some big strides implementing the Powerbox, which allows apps to request permissions to talk to each other and to the outside world. We've also implemented the basics of the in-app HTTP proxy which allows HTTP communications to feel transparent. With a little more work, an app like Wordpress could make a powerbox request to connect to your old Wordpress blog in order to migrate data. Honestly, a lot of what's wrong with Sandstorm boiled down to "we need the Powerbox to do that, and we haven't had time to fully implement it yet, because we need to focus on things that generate revenue in the short term." We finally implemented some critical pieces of the Powerbox in the last month (app-to-app powerbox is now functional) and, as the Powerbox was always my favorite part of the whole design, I'll probably be working on it more soon.
timClicks 10y ago
Hey Kenton - sorry that the business hasn't been as successful as you were hoping for. I am very surprised to hear that you had 0 paying customers though. One of the UI changes that I would make is that Oasis defaults to the free plan. I actually selected a paid plan on the website, but decided to wait and see if the free plan met my needs. It seemed like it did, so I never took the time to upgrade.
- kentonv 10y ago
  > I am very surprised to hear that you had 0 paying customers though. Not exactly true. We had a handful of paying customers for Sandstorm for Work, and we have enough paying customers of Oasis to pay for all of Sandstorm's services. But not enough to pay for employees -- people are expensive. :/ We have experimented with ways to push people towards paid plans on Oasis, but it's a tricky balance between revenue and user growth. I agree we should experiment further.
  - timClicks 10y ago
    Ah - it sounds like I missed the distinction between the two revenue streams.. Am pretty convinced by the Sandstorm model, hope that the future works well for the team.
  - orblivion 10y ago
    Would you consider just adding a donation box? I for one think that it's very important that this thing gets developed. I think you're doing a lot of things right, and it could encourage proliferation of self-hosted applications. This needs to stand as a challenge to the companies that would own our data, and I understand that it does not lend itself to a normal business plan. I imagine a lot of people feel this way, and may be inclined to donate in addition to or instead of their Oasis account.
    - kentonv 10y ago
      I'm thinking about maybe extending Oasis with ways to specify a donation amount separate from the subscription fee, for finer-grained control over donations. It's most efficient for us to have any payments go through our existing payment system there, rather than use other services that charge higher fees. No concrete plans at the moment, though.
whyileft 10y ago
> The main reason we haven't switched over is because switching is costly and it seems like there are better things we could do with our time. In hindsight, do you feel that your potential customers made the same decision?
kartickv 10y ago
Thanks for building Sandstorm, Kenton, and I found the model interesting, though there was no way I'd use it yet because it's a risk to bet on an unproven startup / project. This is the same reason I'd use Node or Rails, not some niche web framework no one has heard of. Or Swift or Java, not OCaml, say. And so on. I wish there was a solution to this chicken-and-egg problem, so that genuinely new and better ideas like yours take off. Open-source helps, but isn't enough, since there are so many abandoned open-source projects, and I don't want to take on the responsibility of maintaining Sandstorm if the team moves on to other things.
- educar 10y ago
  This is not a big deal, you are simply not an early adopter.
  - kartickv 10y ago
    It looks like too many people thought the same thing, causing the business to fail.
    - kentonv 10y ago
      The business failed because customers in the target market never knew it existed, i.e. we sucked at marketing and sales.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
secfirstmd 10y ago
Yeh such a shame that such a promising open source project couldn't find a way to make the business model work. I really like/use it for a number of NGOs in the field who really needed something self-hosted but quick to deploy and easy to manage.

by kentonv 10y ago

educar 10y ago

I apologize for not thanking you for the project and just criticizing. Thanks for the amazing project, Kenton. I meant for it all to be constructive and I hope you take it well. About 4), please do consider the fact that this is the exact same issue most of your users face. We have existing wordpress blogs, forum that we would like to migrate but cannot. Most apps have import/export which is broken (including wordpress which is supposedly mature) :/

kentonv 10y ago
I agree, import/export in Sandstorm rarely works today, and that's a problem. It's one of those things that we've wanted to address but haven't been able to get to, because there are so many things. But we're getting close on this one. We recently made some big strides implementing the Powerbox, which allows apps to request permissions to talk to each other and to the outside world. We've also implemented the basics of the in-app HTTP proxy which allows HTTP communications to feel transparent. With a little more work, an app like Wordpress could make a powerbox request to connect to your old Wordpress blog in order to migrate data. Honestly, a lot of what's wrong with Sandstorm boiled down to "we need the Powerbox to do that, and we haven't had time to fully implement it yet, because we need to focus on things that generate revenue in the short term." We finally implemented some critical pieces of the Powerbox in the last month (app-to-app powerbox is now functional) and, as the Powerbox was always my favorite part of the whole design, I'll probably be working on it more soon.

timClicks 10y ago

Hey Kenton - sorry that the business hasn't been as successful as you were hoping for. I am very surprised to hear that you had 0 paying customers though. One of the UI changes that I would make is that Oasis defaults to the free plan. I actually selected a paid plan on the website, but decided to wait and see if the free plan met my needs. It seemed like it did, so I never took the time to upgrade.

kentonv 10y ago
> I am very surprised to hear that you had 0 paying customers though. Not exactly true. We had a handful of paying customers for Sandstorm for Work, and we have enough paying customers of Oasis to pay for all of Sandstorm's services. But not enough to pay for employees -- people are expensive. :/ We have experimented with ways to push people towards paid plans on Oasis, but it's a tricky balance between revenue and user growth. I agree we should experiment further.
- timClicks 10y ago
  Ah - it sounds like I missed the distinction between the two revenue streams.. Am pretty convinced by the Sandstorm model, hope that the future works well for the team.
- orblivion 10y ago
  Would you consider just adding a donation box? I for one think that it's very important that this thing gets developed. I think you're doing a lot of things right, and it could encourage proliferation of self-hosted applications. This needs to stand as a challenge to the companies that would own our data, and I understand that it does not lend itself to a normal business plan. I imagine a lot of people feel this way, and may be inclined to donate in addition to or instead of their Oasis account.
  - kentonv 10y ago
    I'm thinking about maybe extending Oasis with ways to specify a donation amount separate from the subscription fee, for finer-grained control over donations. It's most efficient for us to have any payments go through our existing payment system there, rather than use other services that charge higher fees. No concrete plans at the moment, though.

whyileft 10y ago

> The main reason we haven't switched over is because switching is costly and it seems like there are better things we could do with our time. In hindsight, do you feel that your potential customers made the same decision?

kartickv 10y ago

Thanks for building Sandstorm, Kenton, and I found the model interesting, though there was no way I'd use it yet because it's a risk to bet on an unproven startup / project. This is the same reason I'd use Node or Rails, not some niche web framework no one has heard of. Or Swift or Java, not OCaml, say. And so on. I wish there was a solution to this chicken-and-egg problem, so that genuinely new and better ideas like yours take off. Open-source helps, but isn't enough, since there are so many abandoned open-source projects, and I don't want to take on the responsibility of maintaining Sandstorm if the team moves on to other things.

educar 10y ago
This is not a big deal, you are simply not an early adopter.
- kartickv 10y ago
  It looks like too many people thought the same thing, causing the business to fail.
  - kentonv 10y ago
    The business failed because customers in the target market never knew it existed, i.e. we sucked at marketing and sales.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

secfirstmd 10y ago

Yeh such a shame that such a promising open source project couldn't find a way to make the business model work. I really like/use it for a number of NGOs in the field who really needed something self-hosted but quick to deploy and easy to manage.