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The problem is that the EU is far more then that. I support both movement of goods and people, I even support standardization efforts and things like that. How

• piva00 10y ago
  Why?
  • nickik 10y ago
    Unspecific question. There are many reasons. We have seen many of the weaknesses of in the last financial crisis. The EU is just horrible set up economically. The Euro as a EU project is the crown achievement of bad economics has been a total and absolut disaster, the biggest since the Inter-War gold standard. There are many other problems, with debt, enforcement of debt collection and so on. The bad EU setup was totally unclear about how debt management worked and all these problem had to be (and jet have to be) solved on a running system, instead of using a good design in the first place. The EU was used often to push bad laws on countries that they had internally rejected, but the people against it could not stop in on European level (Germany Vorratsdatenspeicherung for example). The EU is not democratic enough, both internally and the way it was created. One can of course argue that many of these problems can be solved with more centralization, but that 'solution' has lots of problems by itself also. I would image a EU should be a club that agrees on trade and the movements of goods. There is no reason to handle every single issue under the EU umbrella, I would rather see independent organisation that deal with certain issues. The EU is like a hammer, and every single problem looks like a nail to it.
    • YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago
      >> The EU was used often to push bad laws on countries that they had internally rejected, but the people against it could not stop in on European level (Germany Vorratsdatenspeicherung for example). The EU is not democratic enough, both internally and the way it was created. By the same token you can't stop laws that affect you on the regional level by voting on the national level, or laws that affect you on the community level by voting on the regional level. So what's the solution? Dissolve any union above the community level, so that we can all have our small-town democracies, who can then have a jolly good fight over who shall pick up the garbage? Kind of ... parochial, innit. In any case all that about the EU being undemocratic is just hogwash. MEPs are much more likely to be people from outside the political establishment of their country, which means voting fot he European parliament gives you a much better chance that your vote will represent you rather than give power to established interests that don't give half a bit about you. Plus: Nigel bloody Farage is an MEP. If you call an organisation that allows you to elect people who campaign against it "undemocratic" then I have no idea what you'd call democratic.
      • krona 10y ago
        > In any case all that about the EU being undemocratic is just hogwash. Sorry, People who say 'look, the parliament is elected, therefore the system is democratic' are focusing on the machinations, rather than the demos; it is the demos (the first person plural 'we') which acts as the one thing that permits a group of people to be governed. It cannot be found in the EU parliament, and it cannot be manufactured by tweaking the system. The soviets had elections, too.
        • YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago
          >> People who say 'look, the parliament is elected, therefore the system is democratic' Well, those people are not me. I noted that MEPs come from outside the traditional political establishment and that MEPs like Farage, and others, represent views that are also traditionally left out of governance. That's not the "mechanism" in the abstract. It's the actual nitty-gritty of how it all works out in the end. And that's your demos right there- the people, not the elites, or the corporations or whomever. The EU is democratic because it gives people an opportunity to choose its direction. The UK for instance, it chose to get out. The Soviets? There you go- they couldn't vote themselves out of being Soviet. EU citizens can. Still not seeing how it's all so undemocratic.
          • krona 10y ago
            Just because a citizen has a representative doesn't mean the whole apparatus becomes accountable in his eyes any more legitimate than an occupying power. Look at it this way; how many EU citizens do you think are willing to die in a ditch somewhere in Lithuania for the European project ? These are important aspect of the philosophy of government. I suggest reading the books of Sir Roger Scruton if you really want to understand why.
      • ksec 10y ago
        Regional? National? By that thoughts someday we will get to Global Level. Guess who will win the vote if it is all down to population and Economic Power once US and China steps in. And yes, by the token is exactly the reason why there is a movement for California to try and break out from US, there is Catalan independence, and similar movement in place in many parts of the world. I am not saying EU is a bad in every sense. But it mustn't try to dictate everything, and even starting an military operation.
• gcb0 10y ago
  > I like something as it is > people are proposing to change it > that's why I want to destroy the thing I like see how silly you sound?
  • mercer 10y ago
    - I like something - that something has been achieved but there's been a steady development toward other things that I don't like - that's why I'm not happy with the status quo and (perhaps) I would like things to return or be reduced to that thing I like I don't think that's silly at all, leaving aside my personal view on this.
  • synicalx 10y ago
    Do you see how silly YOU sound? If something you like is changing in such a way that it's no longer something that you like, then why would you want to keep it around?