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I would like to know what is morally wrong in defeating a system designed to beat you. Designed to (almost) always win. The Casino is the one that cheats becaus

I would like to know what is morally wrong in defeating a system designed to beat you. Designed to (almost) always win. The Casino is the one that cheats because the odds are not completely random, as they should.

unwind 10y ago
I guess you're (as a player) supposed to know, understand, and support the fact that the house always wins. It is, after all, not free to build, staff and run a casino, so it would seem obvious that the money to do all that has to come from somewhere? You're simply not supposed to be able to win "too often". Sure, it would be better if it were truly a game of chance, I guess that's too difficult to deliver (and verify) at this point. Or, perhaps, the casinos prefer it this way of course. :)
- tnzn 10y ago
  Except Casinos design the distribution of gains so that you're manipulated into believing it'll be worth, even though you rationnaly know that it's no true.
  - stinkytaco 10y ago
    This could be said for many things: food, alcohol, mobile pay-to-play games, etc, etc. The whole advertising industry is built on making you believe something will be worth it, regardless of rational thought. Seems unfair to single out casinos.
    - sydd 10y ago
      Not really, because slots and other casino games are much more deceiving. The whole thing is engineered so that you believe that you will win lots of money. But the reality is very different, this is how they must be built: - There is a state sanctioned minimum payout rate. This differs by state, but its between 80-90%. This means that on average you lose 80-90% of the $$$ you put in. - Slot machines cannot use conditional probability, in other words spins are independent. This means that the machine has no "memory" each spin is like rolling a dice. You dont have higher chance of payout just because you didnt won anything during the last hour. I've worked for a big slots company and we analyzed our customers a LOT. The big players (AKA whales) who drop thousands per month are not bored rich people in 99% of the cases, they are average people like you and me with a bad gambling addiction. And the state or the casino companies are doing nothing to help these people (why would casino companies care? This is where they are most of their revenue from). This is totally different from other fields - imagine if cigarettes would be advertised as something that makes you healthy and the state would be OK with it.
  - mseebach 10y ago
    Suspension of disbelief, getting detached from the real world, yes, even manipulation are all perfectly fine as long as you consent to them. Ohh but there were free drinks and the lighting was just so and it made me feel so good -- so clearly defrauding the place that made me feel that way, even when I rationally knew that was what was going to happen, is perfectly OK. Are you also OK with stealing popcorn at the cinema because they manipulate you into feeling scared/happy/sad/whatever? This is why we can't have nice things.
    - logfromblammo 10y ago
      I would never steal popcorn from the theater, but I would definitely smuggle in my own bag of it. The theater house rule is that no outside food or drink is allowed, but clearly the only purpose of this rule is to support the brazen markup of food and drink at the theater's own concession stand. I find it difficult to find any harm to the theater in eating smuggled popcorn rather than popcorn purchased on the premises, even when playing Devil's advocate as hard as I possibly can. My worst attempts even end up replacing 90% of the theater employees with a row of vending machines and a subway-style turnstile.
      - nrclark 10y ago
        Agreed that there isn't really any harm in a generalized way. You might be surprised to learn that movie theaters (as they're currently operated) don't really get much from the ticket sales, however. I have a friend who used to be a supervisor at movie theater, and he told me that ~80% of the theater's ticket proceeds went directly to the movie distributor. This is apparently normal in the movie industry. If concessions went away, theaters would probably need to raise their ticket prices a lot. Even if you drastically cut the employees, there's still rent/taxes/insurance/cleaning. The last two could also conceivably go up in price if it became normal to bring in your own food.
      - zem 10y ago
        > I find it difficult to find any harm to the theater in eating smuggled popcorn rather than popcorn purchased on the premises, even when playing Devil's advocate as hard as I possibly can. economics of movie theatres: https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2006/01/5905-2/ https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2006/01/5905-2/
  - dghughes 10y ago
    Casinos don't design the games and the games are highly regulated by outside regulators.
    - cardiffspaceman 10y ago
      Games are examined closely by Nevada regulators and cannot be deployed unless those regulators are happy with them. The examination includes study of the code inside. Almost like FDA process from what I recall of both in the 80's.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ainiriand 10y ago
  What if you have 10 slot machines and they are designed in a random way? You can be pretty sure that you are going to win money in the middle-long run and everyone can be sure that this is a proper 'game/bet'. If they are somehow manipulated/designed that is blatant robbery. I don't think that the regular Joe knows this fact. What do you think?
  - imron 10y ago
    > If they are somehow manipulated/designed that is blatant robbery Yes. Yes it is. That's why they say gambling is a tax on those who can't do math. The machines are programmed to give out less than they take in. In the middle to long run, you are basically guaranteed to lose money.
    - waqf 10y ago
      When you're playing blackjack or craps, with physical devices whose odds are quite likely what they appear to be, "can't do math" might be a fair criticism. But when you're playing an underspecified game against a mysterious algorithm, doing math isn't really an option and all that's left is whether or not you trust the establishment.
      - imron 10y ago
        The math is still there and it's even easier to calculate! For example the article states that the house keeps $0.07129 for every dollar spent, or put another way, for every $100 coming in, the machines need to pay out ~$93. Therefore, you can expect to lose on average $7 for every $100 you spend on slots.
- cr0sh 10y ago
  > Sure, it would be better if it were truly a game of chance, I guess that's too difficult to deliver (and verify) at this point. No - this could be done fairly simply using components that are already available on the consumer market - all you'd need is a simple geiger counter and a radiation source (Americium, like in a smoke detector). Heck, you could go simpler with a transistor - google "transistor random noise source" - plenty of examples out there. > Or, perhaps, the casinos prefer it this way of course. This is probably the key. With a real random noise source, you probably couldn't easily figure odds and such (then again, how do they do this with regular games?)...
- nkrisc 10y ago
  To any person skilled in critical thinking it should be clear that the whole is very unlikely to be fair. Luckily for the casinos, many people are not skilled in critical thinking and analysis.
rdiddly 10y ago
Yeah, the article uses terms like cheat, scam, malfeasance, swindle and bilk, like the casino deserves that money. It's not some poor little old lady, it's an organized-crime-ridden bribe factory getting beaten at its own shifty dishonest game.
- sithadmin 10y ago
  There's nothing dishonest about casino games in regulated casinos. Detailed information on game mechanics and payout odds are generally available from one or more of the following sources: the casino, the local government gaming regulatory agency, and/or the manufacturer/publisher of the games. It takes a minimal amount of effort to figure out which games are the least likely to bleed you dry, and if you spend enough time in or around casinos, and you'll quickly notice that educated/skilled gamblers avoid slots and certain table games like the plague, and gravitate towards games that (generally, if following normal mechanics) have miniscule 'house edges' like single-deck blackjack, baccarat, certain variants of video poker, Pai Gow, etc.
digler999 10y ago
They aren't charging the defendants with a 'moral' crime. I'm not sure what their exact charges are, and they depend on minutae like the article said: "crossing state lines makes it a felony conspiracy to commit fraud". Gaming regulations are written to favor the house. You're correct that we wouldn't expect them to be charged with "tampering with a gaming device" because they never touched it, and they got comparatively light sentences (2 years) compared to Nevada where you can easily get 5-10. Some states may have a new law like "using a computer to manipulate a gaming device" or similar. I think they put that one on the books so that you can't cheat roulette by calculating the trajectory of the ball, or identify unique variances in cards. Regardless, you can expect the laws everywhere to catch up after this incident. I disagree that the "system is designed to beat you" or that the casino "cheats". The casino is there for entertainment. If you don't use it in moderation it can ruin your life just like any other vice: alcohol, drugs, sex, etc. If you have $1000-$5000 (or more), you can fly out to Vegas for the weekend, have a really good time (gaming is only part of that), fly home, and you've got a significant chance that you'll either win or break even. You might also lose, and that's the excitement cycle that is gambling. But even if you lose you can also have a good time at a show/nightclub/concert, every kind of themed bar, meet women, etc, so if you discard "winning money" as the primary objective, gambling isn't designed to beat you. If you go to the casino every day after work, don't be surprised that you will not win anything, or that it might escalate just like any other drug (spending more, not happy when you win, etc). What shocks me is that these guys have the technical prowess to reverse engineer the game/PRNG, but they didn't have the sense to slow down their pace, or reverse engineer the casino management system to avoid detection (or they didn't think to hide their iphone from the start, they said the first guy was holding it right up to the screen, when $100 spent on a clothing alteration would have allowed him to hide it). If you're going to fly internationally to commit a crime, you should know who you're up against and use adequate countermeasures.
- phkahler 10y ago
  >> "crossing state lines makes it a felony conspiracy to commit fraud". I don't see any fraud though. Sure, they found a system to beat the slot machines, but I'm not sure how that's fraud. What if some guys think they're really good at playing poker and they take a trip to a casino to play? At what point does playing smart become fraud? or cheating? When does counting cards in blackjack become cheating? When you get too good at it? This whole area seems rather strange.
ChuckMcM 10y ago
More of a terms of service violation. In my experience growing up in Las Vegas they really only arrested folks who used some device to physically cheat. People who worked the odds by card counting or perhaps taking advantage of an out of balance roulette wheel generally were simply banned for life (which technology and facial recognition makes much easier today apparently). Conspiring with others to break terms of service is of course a crime, and doing so across state lines, is its own sort of nastyness. But you can see from the prison terms (2 years) it wasn't exactly a big threat to these guys.
crusso 10y ago
Casinos make no representations that the odds are "random", and by that I assume that you mean that you have an even chance of winning a given bet. Casinos are in the business of providing entertainment through games that sometimes allow you to win money. If you put money into a PacMan machine, you don't get your money back either. You get entertained by playing the game. If you go to a movie, you pay money that you don't expect to have returned. You pay for entertainment.
- cardiffspaceman 10y ago
  The games are supposed to be "random" but the payout rules make the difference. In craps you get even money from bets on the pass line. But the chance you'll win such a bet is about 47% IIRC, not 50%. If you look around the craps table you'll see that the bet payouts don't match the odds of winning, and that's the vigorish for the house. When casinos host Texas Hold'em, they simply collect a vigorish from the pot. The casino is not otherwise involved in the poker hands.
  - crusso 10y ago
    I'm not disputing your accepted meaning of random. I actually was trying to make common ground with the poster to whom I was responding who was using "random" in a non-standard way.
  - huac 10y ago
    Never take the hard way!
tomjen3 10y ago
I also don't see what is illegal here - isn't it basically counting cards?
k-mcgrady 10y ago
>> The Casino is the one that cheats because the odds are not completely random, as they should. Why should they be? It's a form of entertainment not a way to generate income successfully through skill. If the odds weren't stacked against you I think it would get boring quite quickly as the wins wouldn't be as satisfying.
tzs 10y ago
> The Casino is the one that cheats because the odds are not completely random, as they should. I get what you mean, but what you said means something different, in a way that leads to an interesting question. The odds are not supposed to be completely random. The odds are supposed to fixed in most (all?) casino games (and in most non-casino games). It is the outcome that is supposed to be completely random in casino games, distributed according to the fixed odds. That raises a question. What would a game look like where the odds were random? The odds are determined by the rules, so would the game have to have rules that are changing at random? But if you are given the distribution of the random numbers that determine the rule changes, you could still work out the players odds for the overall game. So do we have to have the distribution that the random rule changes use be completely random, too? But the distribution used to generate the random number used to pick the distribution for picking random numbers to drive the rule changes...do we need to pick that at random....is it going to be random distributions all the way down? My head is starting to hurt...
- feld 10y ago
  Yes, when you setup a slot machine you select in the configuration menu exactly which percentage payout you want the machine to have over its lifetime (~3-5 years). In Wisconsin accessing this menu is highly secured: security guards, cameras, auditors all staring over your shoulder making sure what you set is correct. Also they must report that information to the state here as well as the checksums of the games. I think in 2007 they were doing MD5 still, but my memory is fuzzy on it. Fun fact: by being able to access the payout statistics menu and knowing the machine's installation date it was easy to know which machines would be "hot". I have witnessed machines that paid out poorly for a couple years (+ a few million USD) but would hit regular jackpots near the end of their expected lifecycle. edit: gambling is a scam, please don't participate
  - myowncrapulence 10y ago
    Is this the case with card games at casinos? I'm under the impression card games are completely random and cannot have designated odds (except for basic rules like dealer holds over 17 in blackjack). In this sense wouldn't card games be a wiser bet than slot machines?
Shivetya 10y ago
I would not mind a slot machine based on chance but when the odds are coded in and payouts are refused because of bugs/etc it is not longer a game of chance it becomes something else. At least with cards and dice there is still a lot of chance and the thrill remains. however defeating a legal system should still hold a penalty unless said defeat exposes an illegal setup
xux 10y ago
It's not designed to "beat" you. Casinos are entertainment venues, not banks. One of the main selling points of casinos is the thrill you get from potentially winning a lot of money. You pay for the fun in form of the slight loss of edge in the long run odds. No one goes in a movie theater and complain that it's "beating" you because you come out with a net negative balance
- weberc2 10y ago
  Movie theaters also don't advertise in such a way that suggests will walk out with a lot of money.
  - mejari 10y ago
    I don't believe casinos are allowed to advertise that you will walk out with a lot of money either. Only that you might. Restaurants advertise in such a way that suggests you may have the absolute best night of your life and meet all sorts of new friends, that doesn't mean they are promising it.
    - weberc2 10y ago
      > I don't believe casinos are allowed to advertise that you will walk out with a lot of money either. Only that you might. I never claimed otherwise. Did you read my post? > Restaurants advertise in such a way that suggests you may have the absolute best night of your life and meet all sorts of new friends, that doesn't mean they are promising it. I've never seen such an advertisement, nor have I heard of anyone putting up the deed to their house or the title of their car to pay for their restaurant habit.
      - mejari 10y ago
        >I never claimed otherwise. Did you read my post? Yes, I did. You said >Movie theaters also don't advertise in such a way that suggests will walk out with a lot of money. in response to someone comparing movie theaters to casinos. Your comment is obviously suggesting that you believe casinos advertise "in such a way that suggests will walk out with a lot of money". >I've never seen such an advertisement Check out any chain restaurant advertisement. Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CbVVq4GStc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CbVVq4GStc >nor have I heard of anyone putting up the deed to their house or the title of their car to pay for their restaurant habit. So you're changing the point from "they advertise in a misleading way" to "people can become addicted to it"? That is a different argument so I want to be clear if we're moving on from the original point.
jlg23 10y ago
>I would like to know what is morally wrong in defeating a system designed to beat you. You know it is designed to beat you, you accept the terms and conditions by entering a casino. Which makes you, if you think it is OK to cheat then, a criminal by law and unethical by any standards.
DannyB2 10y ago
There's nothing MORALLY wrong with defeating the system. But it's LEGALLY wrong. That is what will get you into trouble. In certain countries, it's not morally wrong to criticize The Dear Leader. But it is legally wrong and could get you beat to a bloody pulp and thrown in prison. Other countries have not yet implemented such policies. Moral and Legal are different things.
megablast 10y ago
You agree to it though, right? You don't have to play at the Casino, you know how it works, you walk in and accept those rules when you start playing. You don't get upset when you go to a whale show and get wet do you? You don't get upset when you go watch rally racing and get some mud on you?
reddytowns 10y ago
Because that would lead to a smaller Las Vegas which would hurt the livelihood of the constituents.

unwind 10y ago

I guess you're (as a player) supposed to know, understand, and support the fact that the house always wins. It is, after all, not free to build, staff and run a casino, so it would seem obvious that the money to do all that has to come from somewhere? You're simply not supposed to be able to win "too often". Sure, it would be better if it were truly a game of chance, I guess that's too difficult to deliver (and verify) at this point. Or, perhaps, the casinos prefer it this way of course. :)

tnzn 10y ago
Except Casinos design the distribution of gains so that you're manipulated into believing it'll be worth, even though you rationnaly know that it's no true.
- stinkytaco 10y ago
  This could be said for many things: food, alcohol, mobile pay-to-play games, etc, etc. The whole advertising industry is built on making you believe something will be worth it, regardless of rational thought. Seems unfair to single out casinos.
  - sydd 10y ago
    Not really, because slots and other casino games are much more deceiving. The whole thing is engineered so that you believe that you will win lots of money. But the reality is very different, this is how they must be built: - There is a state sanctioned minimum payout rate. This differs by state, but its between 80-90%. This means that on average you lose 80-90% of the $$$ you put in. - Slot machines cannot use conditional probability, in other words spins are independent. This means that the machine has no "memory" each spin is like rolling a dice. You dont have higher chance of payout just because you didnt won anything during the last hour. I've worked for a big slots company and we analyzed our customers a LOT. The big players (AKA whales) who drop thousands per month are not bored rich people in 99% of the cases, they are average people like you and me with a bad gambling addiction. And the state or the casino companies are doing nothing to help these people (why would casino companies care? This is where they are most of their revenue from). This is totally different from other fields - imagine if cigarettes would be advertised as something that makes you healthy and the state would be OK with it.
- mseebach 10y ago
  Suspension of disbelief, getting detached from the real world, yes, even manipulation are all perfectly fine as long as you consent to them. Ohh but there were free drinks and the lighting was just so and it made me feel so good -- so clearly defrauding the place that made me feel that way, even when I rationally knew that was what was going to happen, is perfectly OK. Are you also OK with stealing popcorn at the cinema because they manipulate you into feeling scared/happy/sad/whatever? This is why we can't have nice things.
  - logfromblammo 10y ago
    I would never steal popcorn from the theater, but I would definitely smuggle in my own bag of it. The theater house rule is that no outside food or drink is allowed, but clearly the only purpose of this rule is to support the brazen markup of food and drink at the theater's own concession stand. I find it difficult to find any harm to the theater in eating smuggled popcorn rather than popcorn purchased on the premises, even when playing Devil's advocate as hard as I possibly can. My worst attempts even end up replacing 90% of the theater employees with a row of vending machines and a subway-style turnstile.
    - nrclark 10y ago
      Agreed that there isn't really any harm in a generalized way. You might be surprised to learn that movie theaters (as they're currently operated) don't really get much from the ticket sales, however. I have a friend who used to be a supervisor at movie theater, and he told me that ~80% of the theater's ticket proceeds went directly to the movie distributor. This is apparently normal in the movie industry. If concessions went away, theaters would probably need to raise their ticket prices a lot. Even if you drastically cut the employees, there's still rent/taxes/insurance/cleaning. The last two could also conceivably go up in price if it became normal to bring in your own food.
    - zem 10y ago
      > I find it difficult to find any harm to the theater in eating smuggled popcorn rather than popcorn purchased on the premises, even when playing Devil's advocate as hard as I possibly can. economics of movie theatres: https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2006/01/5905-2/ https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2006/01/5905-2/
- dghughes 10y ago
  Casinos don't design the games and the games are highly regulated by outside regulators.
  - cardiffspaceman 10y ago
    Games are examined closely by Nevada regulators and cannot be deployed unless those regulators are happy with them. The examination includes study of the code inside. Almost like FDA process from what I recall of both in the 80's.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ainiriand 10y ago
What if you have 10 slot machines and they are designed in a random way? You can be pretty sure that you are going to win money in the middle-long run and everyone can be sure that this is a proper 'game/bet'. If they are somehow manipulated/designed that is blatant robbery. I don't think that the regular Joe knows this fact. What do you think?
- imron 10y ago
  > If they are somehow manipulated/designed that is blatant robbery Yes. Yes it is. That's why they say gambling is a tax on those who can't do math. The machines are programmed to give out less than they take in. In the middle to long run, you are basically guaranteed to lose money.
  - waqf 10y ago
    When you're playing blackjack or craps, with physical devices whose odds are quite likely what they appear to be, "can't do math" might be a fair criticism. But when you're playing an underspecified game against a mysterious algorithm, doing math isn't really an option and all that's left is whether or not you trust the establishment.
    - imron 10y ago
      The math is still there and it's even easier to calculate! For example the article states that the house keeps $0.07129 for every dollar spent, or put another way, for every $100 coming in, the machines need to pay out ~$93. Therefore, you can expect to lose on average $7 for every $100 you spend on slots.
cr0sh 10y ago
> Sure, it would be better if it were truly a game of chance, I guess that's too difficult to deliver (and verify) at this point. No - this could be done fairly simply using components that are already available on the consumer market - all you'd need is a simple geiger counter and a radiation source (Americium, like in a smoke detector). Heck, you could go simpler with a transistor - google "transistor random noise source" - plenty of examples out there. > Or, perhaps, the casinos prefer it this way of course. This is probably the key. With a real random noise source, you probably couldn't easily figure odds and such (then again, how do they do this with regular games?)...
nkrisc 10y ago
To any person skilled in critical thinking it should be clear that the whole is very unlikely to be fair. Luckily for the casinos, many people are not skilled in critical thinking and analysis.

rdiddly 10y ago

Yeah, the article uses terms like cheat, scam, malfeasance, swindle and bilk, like the casino deserves that money. It's not some poor little old lady, it's an organized-crime-ridden bribe factory getting beaten at its own shifty dishonest game.

sithadmin 10y ago
There's nothing dishonest about casino games in regulated casinos. Detailed information on game mechanics and payout odds are generally available from one or more of the following sources: the casino, the local government gaming regulatory agency, and/or the manufacturer/publisher of the games. It takes a minimal amount of effort to figure out which games are the least likely to bleed you dry, and if you spend enough time in or around casinos, and you'll quickly notice that educated/skilled gamblers avoid slots and certain table games like the plague, and gravitate towards games that (generally, if following normal mechanics) have miniscule 'house edges' like single-deck blackjack, baccarat, certain variants of video poker, Pai Gow, etc.

digler999 10y ago

They aren't charging the defendants with a 'moral' crime. I'm not sure what their exact charges are, and they depend on minutae like the article said: "crossing state lines makes it a felony conspiracy to commit fraud". Gaming regulations are written to favor the house. You're correct that we wouldn't expect them to be charged with "tampering with a gaming device" because they never touched it, and they got comparatively light sentences (2 years) compared to Nevada where you can easily get 5-10. Some states may have a new law like "using a computer to manipulate a gaming device" or similar. I think they put that one on the books so that you can't cheat roulette by calculating the trajectory of the ball, or identify unique variances in cards. Regardless, you can expect the laws everywhere to catch up after this incident. I disagree that the "system is designed to beat you" or that the casino "cheats". The casino is there for entertainment. If you don't use it in moderation it can ruin your life just like any other vice: alcohol, drugs, sex, etc. If you have $1000-$5000 (or more), you can fly out to Vegas for the weekend, have a really good time (gaming is only part of that), fly home, and you've got a significant chance that you'll either win or break even. You might also lose, and that's the excitement cycle that is gambling. But even if you lose you can also have a good time at a show/nightclub/concert, every kind of themed bar, meet women, etc, so if you discard "winning money" as the primary objective, gambling isn't designed to beat you. If you go to the casino every day after work, don't be surprised that you will not win anything, or that it might escalate just like any other drug (spending more, not happy when you win, etc). What shocks me is that these guys have the technical prowess to reverse engineer the game/PRNG, but they didn't have the sense to slow down their pace, or reverse engineer the casino management system to avoid detection (or they didn't think to hide their iphone from the start, they said the first guy was holding it right up to the screen, when $100 spent on a clothing alteration would have allowed him to hide it). If you're going to fly internationally to commit a crime, you should know who you're up against and use adequate countermeasures.

phkahler 10y ago
>> "crossing state lines makes it a felony conspiracy to commit fraud". I don't see any fraud though. Sure, they found a system to beat the slot machines, but I'm not sure how that's fraud. What if some guys think they're really good at playing poker and they take a trip to a casino to play? At what point does playing smart become fraud? or cheating? When does counting cards in blackjack become cheating? When you get too good at it? This whole area seems rather strange.

ChuckMcM 10y ago

More of a terms of service violation. In my experience growing up in Las Vegas they really only arrested folks who used some device to physically cheat. People who worked the odds by card counting or perhaps taking advantage of an out of balance roulette wheel generally were simply banned for life (which technology and facial recognition makes much easier today apparently). Conspiring with others to break terms of service is of course a crime, and doing so across state lines, is its own sort of nastyness. But you can see from the prison terms (2 years) it wasn't exactly a big threat to these guys.

crusso 10y ago

Casinos make no representations that the odds are "random", and by that I assume that you mean that you have an even chance of winning a given bet. Casinos are in the business of providing entertainment through games that sometimes allow you to win money. If you put money into a PacMan machine, you don't get your money back either. You get entertained by playing the game. If you go to a movie, you pay money that you don't expect to have returned. You pay for entertainment.

cardiffspaceman 10y ago
The games are supposed to be "random" but the payout rules make the difference. In craps you get even money from bets on the pass line. But the chance you'll win such a bet is about 47% IIRC, not 50%. If you look around the craps table you'll see that the bet payouts don't match the odds of winning, and that's the vigorish for the house. When casinos host Texas Hold'em, they simply collect a vigorish from the pot. The casino is not otherwise involved in the poker hands.
- crusso 10y ago
  I'm not disputing your accepted meaning of random. I actually was trying to make common ground with the poster to whom I was responding who was using "random" in a non-standard way.
- huac 10y ago
  Never take the hard way!

tomjen3 10y ago

I also don't see what is illegal here - isn't it basically counting cards?

k-mcgrady 10y ago

>> The Casino is the one that cheats because the odds are not completely random, as they should. Why should they be? It's a form of entertainment not a way to generate income successfully through skill. If the odds weren't stacked against you I think it would get boring quite quickly as the wins wouldn't be as satisfying.

tzs 10y ago

> The Casino is the one that cheats because the odds are not completely random, as they should. I get what you mean, but what you said means something different, in a way that leads to an interesting question. The odds are not supposed to be completely random. The odds are supposed to fixed in most (all?) casino games (and in most non-casino games). It is the outcome that is supposed to be completely random in casino games, distributed according to the fixed odds. That raises a question. What would a game look like where the odds were random? The odds are determined by the rules, so would the game have to have rules that are changing at random? But if you are given the distribution of the random numbers that determine the rule changes, you could still work out the players odds for the overall game. So do we have to have the distribution that the random rule changes use be completely random, too? But the distribution used to generate the random number used to pick the distribution for picking random numbers to drive the rule changes...do we need to pick that at random....is it going to be random distributions all the way down? My head is starting to hurt...

feld 10y ago
Yes, when you setup a slot machine you select in the configuration menu exactly which percentage payout you want the machine to have over its lifetime (~3-5 years). In Wisconsin accessing this menu is highly secured: security guards, cameras, auditors all staring over your shoulder making sure what you set is correct. Also they must report that information to the state here as well as the checksums of the games. I think in 2007 they were doing MD5 still, but my memory is fuzzy on it. Fun fact: by being able to access the payout statistics menu and knowing the machine's installation date it was easy to know which machines would be "hot". I have witnessed machines that paid out poorly for a couple years (+ a few million USD) but would hit regular jackpots near the end of their expected lifecycle. edit: gambling is a scam, please don't participate
- myowncrapulence 10y ago
  Is this the case with card games at casinos? I'm under the impression card games are completely random and cannot have designated odds (except for basic rules like dealer holds over 17 in blackjack). In this sense wouldn't card games be a wiser bet than slot machines?

Shivetya 10y ago

I would not mind a slot machine based on chance but when the odds are coded in and payouts are refused because of bugs/etc it is not longer a game of chance it becomes something else. At least with cards and dice there is still a lot of chance and the thrill remains. however defeating a legal system should still hold a penalty unless said defeat exposes an illegal setup

xux 10y ago

It's not designed to "beat" you. Casinos are entertainment venues, not banks. One of the main selling points of casinos is the thrill you get from potentially winning a lot of money. You pay for the fun in form of the slight loss of edge in the long run odds. No one goes in a movie theater and complain that it's "beating" you because you come out with a net negative balance

weberc2 10y ago
Movie theaters also don't advertise in such a way that suggests will walk out with a lot of money.
- mejari 10y ago
  I don't believe casinos are allowed to advertise that you will walk out with a lot of money either. Only that you might. Restaurants advertise in such a way that suggests you may have the absolute best night of your life and meet all sorts of new friends, that doesn't mean they are promising it.
  - weberc2 10y ago
    > I don't believe casinos are allowed to advertise that you will walk out with a lot of money either. Only that you might. I never claimed otherwise. Did you read my post? > Restaurants advertise in such a way that suggests you may have the absolute best night of your life and meet all sorts of new friends, that doesn't mean they are promising it. I've never seen such an advertisement, nor have I heard of anyone putting up the deed to their house or the title of their car to pay for their restaurant habit.
    - mejari 10y ago
      >I never claimed otherwise. Did you read my post? Yes, I did. You said >Movie theaters also don't advertise in such a way that suggests will walk out with a lot of money. in response to someone comparing movie theaters to casinos. Your comment is obviously suggesting that you believe casinos advertise "in such a way that suggests will walk out with a lot of money". >I've never seen such an advertisement Check out any chain restaurant advertisement. Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CbVVq4GStc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CbVVq4GStc >nor have I heard of anyone putting up the deed to their house or the title of their car to pay for their restaurant habit. So you're changing the point from "they advertise in a misleading way" to "people can become addicted to it"? That is a different argument so I want to be clear if we're moving on from the original point.

jlg23 10y ago

>I would like to know what is morally wrong in defeating a system designed to beat you. You know it is designed to beat you, you accept the terms and conditions by entering a casino. Which makes you, if you think it is OK to cheat then, a criminal by law and unethical by any standards.

DannyB2 10y ago

There's nothing MORALLY wrong with defeating the system. But it's LEGALLY wrong. That is what will get you into trouble. In certain countries, it's not morally wrong to criticize The Dear Leader. But it is legally wrong and could get you beat to a bloody pulp and thrown in prison. Other countries have not yet implemented such policies. Moral and Legal are different things.

megablast 10y ago

You agree to it though, right? You don't have to play at the Casino, you know how it works, you walk in and accept those rules when you start playing. You don't get upset when you go to a whale show and get wet do you? You don't get upset when you go watch rally racing and get some mud on you?

reddytowns 10y ago

Because that would lead to a smaller Las Vegas which would hurt the livelihood of the constituents.