5 ms·

> while the Googles and Microsofts of the world support a program that allows them to hire top engineers from all over the globe. Yes, and exploit those worker

by ebbv 10y ago

> while the Googles and Microsofts of the world support a program that allows them to hire top engineers from all over the globe. Yes, and exploit those workers with lower salary than they deserve because those workers only have a small sliver of the job market available to them that their US Citizen competitors do. The H-1B program is terrible for all employees and only benefits employers, which is why you see big corporations like Microsoft and Facebook pushing to remove caps on it. Not because they generous but because they would love to have more engineers who are underpaid and have a very hard time leaving the company for years until they can one day become citizens (and from what I understand the path to citizenship for an H-1B worker is not easy despite them being extremely productive and high contributing members of society.)

refurb 10y ago
The H-1B program is terrible for all employees and only benefits employers This is patently untrue when it comes to companies like Google or Microsoft. I came to the US on an H1-B. As I'm sure you can imagine, people talk about their salaries. I compared mine to my colleagues who were US citizens. We were all paid about the same. I'm pretty sure these companies would get busted if managers were informed by HR that "this person is going to get a smaller raise since they are on an H1-B".
- humanrebar 10y ago
  I'm glad genuinely glad you came to the U.S. and found gainful employment. I have many friends, some very close, that likewise have come to the U.S. and the U.S. is better for it. That being said, even if the salaries are all the same, it doesn't mean that wages are not suppressed. If you import supply and demand stays consistent, prices drop. I think the burden of proof is on the people saying otherwise to prove that importing tens of thousands of engineers doesn't suppress wages. In other words, if large corporations couldn't import H1B workers, they'd have to do other things to get their work done, and those things would probably involve raising wages for especially skilled engineers. Or perhaps by investing in other productivity measures (better dev tools, better hardware, more administrative assistants, etc.).
  - baddox 10y ago
    At this point I just don't understand your argument. You seem to imply that there is some "correct" supply of engineers, and anything that increases the supply above that is "suppressing wages." That would mean that scholarships for engineering schools, programs for encouraging engineering careers, all forms of immigration, and even internal population growth, would all be things that can "suppress wages."
    - humanrebar 10y ago
      It seems to me that H1B supporters are the ones saying there is a correct supply of engineers and that the U.S. is below that threshold. I'm arguing that the supply is more fungible than that, especially in the long run and especially given a floating price point, and that changing the laws and regulations to solve challenges in particular business models is basically an indirect form of lobbying for special interests.
    - Arizhel 10y ago
      Actually, all those things are things that suppress wages. Think about it: WHY do we need programs to encourage engineering careers? Do we have programs to encourage people to go into law or medicine? Why not? Well those professions don't seem to have a shortage of people willing to work hard to get into those schools. So why does engineering have such a shortage? These programs assume that there's something wrong with young people, or with the culture, causing them to avoid these careers. Maybe, instead, there's something wrong with the careers themselves, and the employers, which cause people to avoid them. So why are we, as a society, subsidizing these rich companies to help them get more workers? If these companies really need these workers so badly, maybe they should foot the bill to recruit people into the profession and then train them (I mean their entire college costs here). If an employer isn't willing to pay $100k for a kid to go through college, who otherwise isn't willing to take that risk himself, then why should the rest of us try to brainwash that kid to do it, or help fund a scholarship for him?
  - mavelikara 10y ago
    > if large corporations couldn't import H1B workers, they'd have to do other things to get their work done, and those things would probably involve raising wages for especially skilled engineers. Or perhaps by investing in other productivity measures Or perhaps, move the job to another country which has a larger supply of workers.
- goda90 10y ago
  Even with equal compensation, having an employee who is not only worried about their job, but also their immigration status, could be of benefit to the company. Theoretically they might cause less trouble, demand less from management, and are less likely to leave, saving the company all sorts of turnover costs.
  - nojvek 10y ago
    Agree on this. My peers at BigCo who were citizens made a bit more than I did and usually got promoted quicker. Managers had the pressure of retaining them otherwise they would leave. Immigrants don't get that option.
- poweribo 10y ago
  H1Bs sponsored by Microsoft / Google are the lucky ones. When I started back in 2008, in the east coast, they gave me 50K and I had 10+ yrs IT exp, with previous Wall St company experience too. When my contract expired, they were so shocked why I quit so fast ;P. The small desi company in NJ who sponsored my didnt know they were shit.

by ebbv 10y ago

refurb 10y ago

The H-1B program is terrible for all employees and only benefits employers This is patently untrue when it comes to companies like Google or Microsoft. I came to the US on an H1-B. As I'm sure you can imagine, people talk about their salaries. I compared mine to my colleagues who were US citizens. We were all paid about the same. I'm pretty sure these companies would get busted if managers were informed by HR that "this person is going to get a smaller raise since they are on an H1-B".

humanrebar 10y ago
I'm glad genuinely glad you came to the U.S. and found gainful employment. I have many friends, some very close, that likewise have come to the U.S. and the U.S. is better for it. That being said, even if the salaries are all the same, it doesn't mean that wages are not suppressed. If you import supply and demand stays consistent, prices drop. I think the burden of proof is on the people saying otherwise to prove that importing tens of thousands of engineers doesn't suppress wages. In other words, if large corporations couldn't import H1B workers, they'd have to do other things to get their work done, and those things would probably involve raising wages for especially skilled engineers. Or perhaps by investing in other productivity measures (better dev tools, better hardware, more administrative assistants, etc.).
- baddox 10y ago
  At this point I just don't understand your argument. You seem to imply that there is some "correct" supply of engineers, and anything that increases the supply above that is "suppressing wages." That would mean that scholarships for engineering schools, programs for encouraging engineering careers, all forms of immigration, and even internal population growth, would all be things that can "suppress wages."
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    It seems to me that H1B supporters are the ones saying there is a correct supply of engineers and that the U.S. is below that threshold. I'm arguing that the supply is more fungible than that, especially in the long run and especially given a floating price point, and that changing the laws and regulations to solve challenges in particular business models is basically an indirect form of lobbying for special interests.
  - Arizhel 10y ago
    Actually, all those things are things that suppress wages. Think about it: WHY do we need programs to encourage engineering careers? Do we have programs to encourage people to go into law or medicine? Why not? Well those professions don't seem to have a shortage of people willing to work hard to get into those schools. So why does engineering have such a shortage? These programs assume that there's something wrong with young people, or with the culture, causing them to avoid these careers. Maybe, instead, there's something wrong with the careers themselves, and the employers, which cause people to avoid them. So why are we, as a society, subsidizing these rich companies to help them get more workers? If these companies really need these workers so badly, maybe they should foot the bill to recruit people into the profession and then train them (I mean their entire college costs here). If an employer isn't willing to pay $100k for a kid to go through college, who otherwise isn't willing to take that risk himself, then why should the rest of us try to brainwash that kid to do it, or help fund a scholarship for him?
- mavelikara 10y ago
  > if large corporations couldn't import H1B workers, they'd have to do other things to get their work done, and those things would probably involve raising wages for especially skilled engineers. Or perhaps by investing in other productivity measures Or perhaps, move the job to another country which has a larger supply of workers.
goda90 10y ago
Even with equal compensation, having an employee who is not only worried about their job, but also their immigration status, could be of benefit to the company. Theoretically they might cause less trouble, demand less from management, and are less likely to leave, saving the company all sorts of turnover costs.
- nojvek 10y ago
  Agree on this. My peers at BigCo who were citizens made a bit more than I did and usually got promoted quicker. Managers had the pressure of retaining them otherwise they would leave. Immigrants don't get that option.
poweribo 10y ago
H1Bs sponsored by Microsoft / Google are the lucky ones. When I started back in 2008, in the east coast, they gave me 50K and I had 10+ yrs IT exp, with previous Wall St company experience too. When my contract expired, they were so shocked why I quit so fast ;P. The small desi company in NJ who sponsored my didnt know they were shit.