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I don't believe any answer to a "what ought we do..." question can cohere without agreeing to a shared moral framework. The answer to the question will always a

I don't believe any answer to a "what ought we do..." question can cohere without agreeing to a shared moral framework. The answer to the question will always assume you want to maximize something(s) and choosing among those competing somethings will always be a values judgment.

throwanem 10y ago
I really hope you're wrong.
- dabbledash 10y ago
  Well what would the logical alternative be? If I argue that someone should support a policy because it serves their self interest, that presumes a moral framework. If I argue they should support it for the greater good, that assumes a moral framework. And so on. I don't think it's a question of looking really hard for the right argument, such an argument is logically precluded.
  - tempestn 10y ago
    And it seems to me that most people's framework tends to fall somewhere between the two. People actually aim to maximize some function that depends on both self-interest AND the greater good. The weighting between the two varies between individuals, based on numerous other variables, but very few people are 100% one way or the other (Mother Teresa vs a sociopath). So ISTM now that the goal isn't to convince people to follow a particular moral framework, but rather to attempt to influence the variables that already steer people toward one or another. One of those is exposure. There's that Mark Twain quote, "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness..." Another, as discussed above, is financial well-being. The more comfortable one is personally, the easier it is to consider the plight of others. There are certainly others. I agree with you that while there are some appeals to self-interest that support a goal of equality, fundamentally it is an issue of morality. And I agree with you that you can't logic someone from one moral framework to another. But I would add that almost everyone does have some amount of 'maximize the greater good' built into their moral framework already, so the only logical way to work toward this is to focus on the variables that will add weight to that side of the equation.

throwanem 10y ago

I really hope you're wrong.

dabbledash 10y ago
Well what would the logical alternative be? If I argue that someone should support a policy because it serves their self interest, that presumes a moral framework. If I argue they should support it for the greater good, that assumes a moral framework. And so on. I don't think it's a question of looking really hard for the right argument, such an argument is logically precluded.
- tempestn 10y ago
  And it seems to me that most people's framework tends to fall somewhere between the two. People actually aim to maximize some function that depends on both self-interest AND the greater good. The weighting between the two varies between individuals, based on numerous other variables, but very few people are 100% one way or the other (Mother Teresa vs a sociopath). So ISTM now that the goal isn't to convince people to follow a particular moral framework, but rather to attempt to influence the variables that already steer people toward one or another. One of those is exposure. There's that Mark Twain quote, "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness..." Another, as discussed above, is financial well-being. The more comfortable one is personally, the easier it is to consider the plight of others. There are certainly others. I agree with you that while there are some appeals to self-interest that support a goal of equality, fundamentally it is an issue of morality. And I agree with you that you can't logic someone from one moral framework to another. But I would add that almost everyone does have some amount of 'maximize the greater good' built into their moral framework already, so the only logical way to work toward this is to focus on the variables that will add weight to that side of the equation.