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If you can't convince Mozilla to adopt WebKit, how can you expect MS to do the same? I really wish Mozilla and Opera adopted WebKit and devs from all the non-MS

by chime 16y ago

If you can't convince Mozilla to adopt WebKit, how can you expect MS to do the same? I really wish Mozilla and Opera adopted WebKit and devs from all the non-MS browsers worked together on WebKit. Then we'd have an IE and non-IE web. Right now, we have a IE vs FF vs Safari vs Chrome vs Opera web and it really really sucks as a developer. The whole "develop for standards" doesn't work when each browser renders things slightly differently. While coding up http://bulletxt.zetabee.com http://bulletxt.zetabee.com I realized that each browser handles line-height, padding, margins, and font-alignment differently, especially when applied to textarea. Sure, most of the non-IE browsers handle things in a similar way but similar is not good enough in many instances. If I do margin-top: -4px, it works fine in Chrome and Safari but I need to make it -6px in Opera and -2px in Firefox. IE doesn't even work that way so I end up doing something completely different. I would be completely fine with there being 1 rendering engine and 1 JS engine no matter the browser. And all browsers could improve on the speed/performance of these engines without changing the output or requiring different input. If I do padding-right:10px for a float:left element with position:fixed, I want it to look the exact same in ALL browsers. I know standards try to do that but it just doesn't work. Standards work in theory but in practice, it is the code that works. WebKit works like WebKit. If I created the spec/standard based on WebKit and implemented it based on this new standard, it would NOT be WebKit. Standards work well for protocols and communication methods but for actually rendering arbitrarily complex window elements, they don't work and last decade of failed attempts at standardization have shown us that. Think of how many websites/tutorials/articles exist solely to help deal with browser inconsistencies. Now imagine if that effort could have been made towards something productive.

DrJokepu 16y ago
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with Gecko and I don't think Mozilla should drop it. It is still a quite advanced and fast rendering engine. I think the problems of Firefox are mostly management issues (being completely out of touch with the real needs of their users) which in turn effect which features get developed or which bugs get fixed. About the rendering differences between Gecko and WebKit: a very tiny fraction of my time is spent on fixing things that look differently in Firefox and Gecko. Getting things working (and displaying properly) in IE is a lot bigger issue. I have yet to meet a rendering/JavaScript Gecko/WebKit difference issue that cannot be fixed trivially in a couple of seconds.
zokier 16y ago
Maybe you should design your sites so that it doesn't need to render pixel-to-pixel the same as on the designers workstation.
- chime 16y ago
  I do that for most of my sites but there are many things that require pixel-level adjustments. If all I'm making is a blog with headers and p, span tags, nobody cares if things don't line up exactly the same on my browser vs. their browser. However, take a look at: http://bulletxt.zetabee.com/demo http://bulletxt.zetabee.com/demo - not everything that is created using HTML/JS is a basic page. If you're trying to make even slightly complex web-apps, one extra pixel width will move things into the next line. It's very easy to say "design for standards" or "design for fluid layouts" but when it comes to actually coding it up, it just doesn't work like that. My point wasn't that I don't know how to make things work. In the end, all my finished products work well. My point was that it's a pain to make everything work nicely across all the browsers and that inconsistency causes headaches.
metamemetics 16y ago
?? Negative margin-top renders the same for me in every browser except IE6. This code renders a green rectangle border on top of its parent with negative margin-top even though it's inside: #main{background:#F00;height:128px;width:128px;margin:100px;} #shift{background:#0F0;height:16px;width:128px;margin-top:-16px;float:left;} <div id="main"> <div id="shift"></div> </div> Can you give some example code of your problem? Also why would you ever be combining float and position:fixed? To my knowledge, if you set position to absolute or fixed, float is automatically be computed as none.

by chime 16y ago

DrJokepu 16y ago

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with Gecko and I don't think Mozilla should drop it. It is still a quite advanced and fast rendering engine. I think the problems of Firefox are mostly management issues (being completely out of touch with the real needs of their users) which in turn effect which features get developed or which bugs get fixed. About the rendering differences between Gecko and WebKit: a very tiny fraction of my time is spent on fixing things that look differently in Firefox and Gecko. Getting things working (and displaying properly) in IE is a lot bigger issue. I have yet to meet a rendering/JavaScript Gecko/WebKit difference issue that cannot be fixed trivially in a couple of seconds.

zokier 16y ago

Maybe you should design your sites so that it doesn't need to render pixel-to-pixel the same as on the designers workstation.

chime 16y ago
I do that for most of my sites but there are many things that require pixel-level adjustments. If all I'm making is a blog with headers and p, span tags, nobody cares if things don't line up exactly the same on my browser vs. their browser. However, take a look at: http://bulletxt.zetabee.com/demo http://bulletxt.zetabee.com/demo - not everything that is created using HTML/JS is a basic page. If you're trying to make even slightly complex web-apps, one extra pixel width will move things into the next line. It's very easy to say "design for standards" or "design for fluid layouts" but when it comes to actually coding it up, it just doesn't work like that. My point wasn't that I don't know how to make things work. In the end, all my finished products work well. My point was that it's a pain to make everything work nicely across all the browsers and that inconsistency causes headaches.

metamemetics 16y ago

?? Negative margin-top renders the same for me in every browser except IE6. This code renders a green rectangle border on top of its parent with negative margin-top even though it's inside: #main{background:#F00;height:128px;width:128px;margin:100px;} #shift{background:#0F0;height:16px;width:128px;margin-top:-16px;float:left;} <div id="main"> <div id="shift"></div> </div> Can you give some example code of your problem? Also why would you ever be combining float and position:fixed? To my knowledge, if you set position to absolute or fixed, float is automatically be computed as none.