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Isn't it a sufficient argument that we should strive to create a world where all people have equal opportunity? Yes, there is a natural human instinct to try p

Isn't it a sufficient argument that we should strive to create a world where all people have equal opportunity? Yes, there is a natural human instinct to try provide the best situation for oneself. But beyond that, you can either decide everything is arbitrary and nothing matters, or you can make decisions based on a moral framework. Equal opportunity for everyone, regardless of the circumstances of their birth beyond their control, seems like a good basis to me. That said, I expect there are more robust philosophical arguments. I'm no philosopher, but I'll take a stab at it. Consider the prisoner's dilemma. If everyone acts solely in their own self-interest, it's worse for the whole than if people act cooperatively. Human civilization can be seen the same way. An individual might elevate themselves by acting purely out of self-interest, but on the average we're better off acting cooperatively. So I would suggest that not only is there a moral imperative to strive toward equality, doing so will also improve quality of life overall.

alextheparrot 10y ago
I actually agree that it is wholly sufficient (Based on my life situation) though not necessarily convincing in general. I've been trying to explore the frame used by people voting along protectionist lines, and I don't believe this form would convince them given that the most common narrative against globalization appears to be losing too much to others.
- tempestn 10y ago
  Thanks for this answer. It made me go back and re-read your points again, and reflect on my own viewpoint a bit more deeply. I expect that were I not personally as financially comfortable as I am, it would be less easy to think in the abstract about the merits of equality. I believe in immigration, I donate a decent amount to both domestic and international charities, etc... but it's not like I do it to the extent of materially affecting my own way of life. And of course, that's natural; people DO value their own well-being and that of their families and friends (and especially children) more than that of strangers. It's a very rare person who's willing to completely sacrifice their own standard of living in the name of global utilitarianism. (Mother Teresa comes to mind, but that's about it...) But it's also pretty rare for a person not to feel any selfless compassion for others either; it's just harder when one feels one's own needs aren't being met. So maybe that's the real solution to your problem: find a way to address people's needs without resorting to a zero-sum mentality. When people feel they're getting by alright, they will naturally be less begrudging of others. Easier said than done of course, but not impossible. Much more difficult when the focus is on this zero-sum game instead though.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    > I expect that were I not personally as financially comfortable as I am, it would be less easy to think in the abstract about the merits of equality. The crux of the issue. I appreciate you taking the time, and employing the insight, to identify it. In my experience of such discussions, few do.
throwanem 10y ago
> Isn't it a sufficient argument that we should strive to create a world where all people have equal opportunity? It would seem not, or this conversation wouldn't have played out the way it has. I'd certainly be interested to see a defense of this claim that didn't rely on one's interlocutor sharing one's own moral precepts in order to cohere.
- Curious42 10y ago
  Can you also make a defense for racism using the same parameters as you want the aforementioned points reasoned out with? Sometimes, logic needs to be manufactured hand-in-hand with what's morally right. The transition from slavery, to equality wasn't easy, and neither was it done overnight. I'm not saying a borderless planet would work out; at least not anytime soon. But we should at least be working towards it. We know that AI could go bizzarlly wrong, but we still work towards achieving better results everyday.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    > Sometimes, logic needs to be manufactured hand-in-hand with what's morally right. The point I'm making is that not everyone agrees with you about what's morally right. In fact, most people in the US, at least, do not. If you want to effectively advance your cause, it is worth finding an argument for your claims which does not rely on moral precepts your interlocutor may not share. As a side note, likening the existence of national borders to the institution of slavery is probably not such an argument.
    - Curious42 10y ago
      If you take it with an open mind, you'll see that my intention is not to liken them, but to demonstrate that not every cause has an inherent, intrinsic argument. It's not a surprise to me that it's most people in the US that are against the idea of this, because they fear that instead of the datum of other countries moving up, that of USA will go down. This insecurity always annoys me. But take everything I say with a grain of salt because I do not consider myself patriotic whatsoever, and in that sense, my thoughts are in the opposite direction as those of Americans, who, through personal observation are the most patriotic people I've come across.

alextheparrot 10y ago

I actually agree that it is wholly sufficient (Based on my life situation) though not necessarily convincing in general. I've been trying to explore the frame used by people voting along protectionist lines, and I don't believe this form would convince them given that the most common narrative against globalization appears to be losing too much to others.

tempestn 10y ago
Thanks for this answer. It made me go back and re-read your points again, and reflect on my own viewpoint a bit more deeply. I expect that were I not personally as financially comfortable as I am, it would be less easy to think in the abstract about the merits of equality. I believe in immigration, I donate a decent amount to both domestic and international charities, etc... but it's not like I do it to the extent of materially affecting my own way of life. And of course, that's natural; people DO value their own well-being and that of their families and friends (and especially children) more than that of strangers. It's a very rare person who's willing to completely sacrifice their own standard of living in the name of global utilitarianism. (Mother Teresa comes to mind, but that's about it...) But it's also pretty rare for a person not to feel any selfless compassion for others either; it's just harder when one feels one's own needs aren't being met. So maybe that's the real solution to your problem: find a way to address people's needs without resorting to a zero-sum mentality. When people feel they're getting by alright, they will naturally be less begrudging of others. Easier said than done of course, but not impossible. Much more difficult when the focus is on this zero-sum game instead though.
- throwanem 10y ago
  > I expect that were I not personally as financially comfortable as I am, it would be less easy to think in the abstract about the merits of equality. The crux of the issue. I appreciate you taking the time, and employing the insight, to identify it. In my experience of such discussions, few do.

throwanem 10y ago

> Isn't it a sufficient argument that we should strive to create a world where all people have equal opportunity? It would seem not, or this conversation wouldn't have played out the way it has. I'd certainly be interested to see a defense of this claim that didn't rely on one's interlocutor sharing one's own moral precepts in order to cohere.

Curious42 10y ago
Can you also make a defense for racism using the same parameters as you want the aforementioned points reasoned out with? Sometimes, logic needs to be manufactured hand-in-hand with what's morally right. The transition from slavery, to equality wasn't easy, and neither was it done overnight. I'm not saying a borderless planet would work out; at least not anytime soon. But we should at least be working towards it. We know that AI could go bizzarlly wrong, but we still work towards achieving better results everyday.
- throwanem 10y ago
  > Sometimes, logic needs to be manufactured hand-in-hand with what's morally right. The point I'm making is that not everyone agrees with you about what's morally right. In fact, most people in the US, at least, do not. If you want to effectively advance your cause, it is worth finding an argument for your claims which does not rely on moral precepts your interlocutor may not share. As a side note, likening the existence of national borders to the institution of slavery is probably not such an argument.
  - Curious42 10y ago
    If you take it with an open mind, you'll see that my intention is not to liken them, but to demonstrate that not every cause has an inherent, intrinsic argument. It's not a surprise to me that it's most people in the US that are against the idea of this, because they fear that instead of the datum of other countries moving up, that of USA will go down. This insecurity always annoys me. But take everything I say with a grain of salt because I do not consider myself patriotic whatsoever, and in that sense, my thoughts are in the opposite direction as those of Americans, who, through personal observation are the most patriotic people I've come across.