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I'm not disregarding it. I'm suggesting we should be working towards formulating economics, politics and everything else which works out for a borderless planet

I'm not disregarding it. I'm suggesting we should be working towards formulating economics, politics and everything else which works out for a borderless planet. In regards to why I advocate it - like I said, the way the system works today, some people have more privilege than the others, and this isn't by choice. We should be trying to bring everyone upto the same datum, not the other way around. While the current visa systems are not the texbook definition of discrimination, we are in some way still limiting people's choices based on the land they were born in. If we're talking first principles, a human should be able to roam wherever he chooses. Of course, this isn't an ideal world, and I'm not advocating for terrorists to be able to make it through wherever they wish, but I'm sure if thought hard enough, we'll be able to come up with a system that ensures that a couple of groups of terrorist, and a few other kinds of knobheads don't pull their entire nations down. But right now, we're working in the opposite direction.

alextheparrot 10y ago
Can you clarify why a human has a right to roam to zones other humans have established for their own safety and prosperity? Couldn't one also argue that a group of humans have a right to exclude other humans from the zones they hold, which seems to be as strong of an argument as the right to traverse arbitrary zones? From the terrorist portion of your comment, it appears you agree that certain actors can be excluded. If we can exclude people from our tribal zones, then nations have strong logical foundations, as they are simply the manifestation of the ability of tribes to exclude others.
- Curious42 10y ago
  >Couldn't one also argue that a group of humans have a right to exclude other humans from the zones they hold They could, but they'd be dating back to the principles that were prevalent when various species of the Homo genus existed. When Sapiens were a threat to the Neanderthals, the Neanderthals a threat to the habilis etc. They were thought of as threats for similar reasons as you mentioned; one being more privileged than the other, which led to an insecurity. A lot of factors such as the geography, and the natural resources that companions the land play a huge factor in the well-being of the society. From what you're suggesting, I get the idea that you want that to remain as a given privilege that should only be cherished by the people who were born around it. That a human born in terrible conditions is a threat to the more affluent, and it's resources and security, solely because the latter was born in a better habitat.This doesn't seem very different to me than the ideologies adopted by the tribes and the cavemen that date back to tens of thousands of years. I hope I'm not coming off too strong with my words. The language is my barrier, and I've been known to go off on a tangent sometimes due to that. I hope you understand.
  - alextheparrot 10y ago
    Can you clarify why, from the third person, such significant privilege that affords such significant benefits would ever so willingly given up? I'm asking you to supply the logic such that we can convince individual members of our tribal states that they should support the movement towards a borderless/nationless world. So far, the argument has been moral (When privileged, you have a moral obligation to elevate those less privileged), though I was hoping for a stronger argument than that.
    - bencoder 10y ago
      I'm not the person you're asking but I hold similar views. An alternative argument could be that should your particular zone have a reversal of fortune - war or climate change, say - It would be good to have the ability to move freely to somewhere with better prospects. The world isn't static.
      - alextheparrot 10y ago
        Effectively a utilitarian argument, using good-will today as a hedge against tomorrow. I believe the argument, though the strength depends on how much risk you expect tomorrow versus how much you give up today.
    - tempestn 10y ago
      Isn't it a sufficient argument that we should strive to create a world where all people have equal opportunity? Yes, there is a natural human instinct to try provide the best situation for oneself. But beyond that, you can either decide everything is arbitrary and nothing matters, or you can make decisions based on a moral framework. Equal opportunity for everyone, regardless of the circumstances of their birth beyond their control, seems like a good basis to me. That said, I expect there are more robust philosophical arguments. I'm no philosopher, but I'll take a stab at it. Consider the prisoner's dilemma. If everyone acts solely in their own self-interest, it's worse for the whole than if people act cooperatively. Human civilization can be seen the same way. An individual might elevate themselves by acting purely out of self-interest, but on the average we're better off acting cooperatively. So I would suggest that not only is there a moral imperative to strive toward equality, doing so will also improve quality of life overall.

alextheparrot 10y ago

Can you clarify why a human has a right to roam to zones other humans have established for their own safety and prosperity? Couldn't one also argue that a group of humans have a right to exclude other humans from the zones they hold, which seems to be as strong of an argument as the right to traverse arbitrary zones? From the terrorist portion of your comment, it appears you agree that certain actors can be excluded. If we can exclude people from our tribal zones, then nations have strong logical foundations, as they are simply the manifestation of the ability of tribes to exclude others.

Curious42 10y ago
>Couldn't one also argue that a group of humans have a right to exclude other humans from the zones they hold They could, but they'd be dating back to the principles that were prevalent when various species of the Homo genus existed. When Sapiens were a threat to the Neanderthals, the Neanderthals a threat to the habilis etc. They were thought of as threats for similar reasons as you mentioned; one being more privileged than the other, which led to an insecurity. A lot of factors such as the geography, and the natural resources that companions the land play a huge factor in the well-being of the society. From what you're suggesting, I get the idea that you want that to remain as a given privilege that should only be cherished by the people who were born around it. That a human born in terrible conditions is a threat to the more affluent, and it's resources and security, solely because the latter was born in a better habitat.This doesn't seem very different to me than the ideologies adopted by the tribes and the cavemen that date back to tens of thousands of years. I hope I'm not coming off too strong with my words. The language is my barrier, and I've been known to go off on a tangent sometimes due to that. I hope you understand.
- alextheparrot 10y ago
  Can you clarify why, from the third person, such significant privilege that affords such significant benefits would ever so willingly given up? I'm asking you to supply the logic such that we can convince individual members of our tribal states that they should support the movement towards a borderless/nationless world. So far, the argument has been moral (When privileged, you have a moral obligation to elevate those less privileged), though I was hoping for a stronger argument than that.
  - bencoder 10y ago
    I'm not the person you're asking but I hold similar views. An alternative argument could be that should your particular zone have a reversal of fortune - war or climate change, say - It would be good to have the ability to move freely to somewhere with better prospects. The world isn't static.
    - alextheparrot 10y ago
      Effectively a utilitarian argument, using good-will today as a hedge against tomorrow. I believe the argument, though the strength depends on how much risk you expect tomorrow versus how much you give up today.
  - tempestn 10y ago
    Isn't it a sufficient argument that we should strive to create a world where all people have equal opportunity? Yes, there is a natural human instinct to try provide the best situation for oneself. But beyond that, you can either decide everything is arbitrary and nothing matters, or you can make decisions based on a moral framework. Equal opportunity for everyone, regardless of the circumstances of their birth beyond their control, seems like a good basis to me. That said, I expect there are more robust philosophical arguments. I'm no philosopher, but I'll take a stab at it. Consider the prisoner's dilemma. If everyone acts solely in their own self-interest, it's worse for the whole than if people act cooperatively. Human civilization can be seen the same way. An individual might elevate themselves by acting purely out of self-interest, but on the average we're better off acting cooperatively. So I would suggest that not only is there a moral imperative to strive toward equality, doing so will also improve quality of life overall.