8 ms·

Fred's a smart guy. I hope the end of the neutral internet hastens the rise of mesh networking. If I want to order a pizza online, it really shouldn't have to

by danjoc 10y ago

Fred's a smart guy. I hope the end of the neutral internet hastens the rise of mesh networking. If I want to order a pizza online, it really shouldn't have to go through the ISP gatekeepers, travel along a Level 3 trunk, be inspected by the NSA, and then be routed back down to the pizza joint 3 blocks from my house.

Kinnard 10y ago
My thoughts (almost) exactly. Are you active in the Mesh Networking space? If so, what's the latest? Anyone else out there is welcome to ring in as well.
- gravypod 10y ago
  Get a ham radio license and join Network 44 if you'd like to get involved.
  - Kinnard 10y ago
    Why does one need a license to run a radio?
    - gravypod 10y ago
      It depends on your country but for Americans the FCC places restrictions on communications (what you can say) and band plans (where you can talk). Why they would do this is many fold and if you'd like to hear why the government might want to do this I'd need to write in longer form them a comment.
    - mhink 10y ago
      I could be wrong on this (it's been years and years since I got my ham license), but I think the licensing of individual operators is intended to _ensure_ that ham radio is preserved for individual operators. The idea being that keeping the band available for... say, emergency communication, is in the public interest. Also, for what it's worth, transmitting on CB (Citizens' Band) radio doesn't require a license, but I think it's restricted to very low-power bands.
      - bigiain 10y ago
        CB radio is legal (in Australia and the US at least) thanks to "class licences". A manufacturer can sell equipment that meets certain limitations (eg: 5W max transmit power for 27Meg CB, from 26.965MHz to 27.405MHz), and customers can then buy and use them under the manufacturers "class licence". This is the same for heaps of other radio transmitters - your wifi, you garage door opener, your baby monitor, your bluetooth headphone, the video downlink on your quadcopter, the zigbee network for you lightbulbs etc. All of those run in specific frequency bands with capped maximum transmit powers (if legally sold. My local .au rules say 2.4GHz analog video is limited to 100mW, it's cheaper to buy 600mW transmitters from China than legally class-licenced gear locally, so a lot of people do - much to the disappointment of neighbours who's 2.4GHz wifi reception turns lousy when a 600mW video Tx gets powered up nearby...)
    - bigiain 10y ago
      Mostly so that someone else "running a radio" doesn't get to degrade your tv reception, or your mobile phone connection, or your local police/fire/ambulance service communication, or air traffic control's ability to safely manage airplanes, etc. The radio spectrum is scarce - and while there's a lot to criticise about how governments "hand out" chunks of that spectrum to telcos, commercial radio networks, tv networks, et al - there's clearly a public-interest-need to be able to slap down _hard_ people like this: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/lonewolf-radio-hoaxer-hacks-melbourne-air-traffic-control-afp-20161107-gsk12o.html http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/lonewolf-radio-hoaxer-hack...
  - matt_wulfeck 10y ago
    I knew something like this must exist! Thank you. I can't believe there's an entire /8 block dedicated to this. That's like owning a square mile of land in downtown San Francisco.
- danjoc 10y ago
  Ingenu has an SDK/dev kit available. It's a little on the expensive side, and patent encumbered. A bunch of wireless execs trying to disrupt the wireless industry. The LoRa WAN stuff is cheaper and more open, but seems more primitive. All of it is low bandwidth, but how much bandwidth do you really need for "large pepperoni and 2 liter pepsi"? Same goes for all these 140 char messages flying around.
vacri 10y ago
Your pizza joint isn't running their own server (which is most probably a good thing).
- samplatt 10y ago
  No, but they probably have a fairly decent small set of expensive failover servers for their web site and customer databases, and will almost certainly have a desktop to communicate the days' financials back to head office in a different state/country. In a world where mesh networking is a reality, when a franchisee buys into a chain business it will come with local networking hardware, part-and-parcel with the branded window-signs and soul-destroying uniforms. In my personal little dream-future, anyway :-)
  - bigiain 10y ago
    Ummm, yeah - so you've never worked for the hospitality industry huh? (You tell em "$5/month isn't an appropriate webhosting plan for your online ordering!" and they say "Yeah, I can get it for $12/year with GoDaddy!")
mahyarm 10y ago
Mesh networking has theoretical limits that guarantee that normal internet will beat it by a mile.
- 3131s 10y ago
  I am curious to learn more about this if anyone has a recommendation for a paper or two to read.
  - einarvollset 10y ago
    This is probably the most widely cited one: http://circuit.ucsd.edu/~massimo/Papers_files/Capacity-Physical-TIT.pdf http://circuit.ucsd.edu/~massimo/Papers_files/Capacity-Physi...
- gravypod 10y ago
  Mesh networking just revolves around the idea that computers can be linked. If mesh networks have theoretical limits then the internet has them as well. Mesh networking is a collection of multiple technologies in its ideal form.
  - woah 10y ago
    This gets at the heart of the matter: "mesh networking" means a bunch of different things. It started out meaning a network composed of mobile devices with omnidirectional antennas, running an ad-hoc routing protocol. This is probably why OP said it has limits, as such a network will be slow and lose a lot of bandwidth with every hop. These days, it's mostly a phrase used when people are excited about networking technologies.
  - lrem 10y ago
    Mesh networks have some practical limits they are unlikely to overcome, like crossing an ocean, or any sufficiently large unpopulated area. You do need expensive dedicated infrastructure for that.
    - 10y ago

by danjoc 10y ago

Kinnard 10y ago

My thoughts (almost) exactly. Are you active in the Mesh Networking space? If so, what's the latest? Anyone else out there is welcome to ring in as well.

gravypod 10y ago
Get a ham radio license and join Network 44 if you'd like to get involved.
- Kinnard 10y ago
  Why does one need a license to run a radio?
  - gravypod 10y ago
    It depends on your country but for Americans the FCC places restrictions on communications (what you can say) and band plans (where you can talk). Why they would do this is many fold and if you'd like to hear why the government might want to do this I'd need to write in longer form them a comment.
  - mhink 10y ago
    I could be wrong on this (it's been years and years since I got my ham license), but I think the licensing of individual operators is intended to _ensure_ that ham radio is preserved for individual operators. The idea being that keeping the band available for... say, emergency communication, is in the public interest. Also, for what it's worth, transmitting on CB (Citizens' Band) radio doesn't require a license, but I think it's restricted to very low-power bands.
    - bigiain 10y ago
      CB radio is legal (in Australia and the US at least) thanks to "class licences". A manufacturer can sell equipment that meets certain limitations (eg: 5W max transmit power for 27Meg CB, from 26.965MHz to 27.405MHz), and customers can then buy and use them under the manufacturers "class licence". This is the same for heaps of other radio transmitters - your wifi, you garage door opener, your baby monitor, your bluetooth headphone, the video downlink on your quadcopter, the zigbee network for you lightbulbs etc. All of those run in specific frequency bands with capped maximum transmit powers (if legally sold. My local .au rules say 2.4GHz analog video is limited to 100mW, it's cheaper to buy 600mW transmitters from China than legally class-licenced gear locally, so a lot of people do - much to the disappointment of neighbours who's 2.4GHz wifi reception turns lousy when a 600mW video Tx gets powered up nearby...)
  - bigiain 10y ago
    Mostly so that someone else "running a radio" doesn't get to degrade your tv reception, or your mobile phone connection, or your local police/fire/ambulance service communication, or air traffic control's ability to safely manage airplanes, etc. The radio spectrum is scarce - and while there's a lot to criticise about how governments "hand out" chunks of that spectrum to telcos, commercial radio networks, tv networks, et al - there's clearly a public-interest-need to be able to slap down _hard_ people like this: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/lonewolf-radio-hoaxer-hacks-melbourne-air-traffic-control-afp-20161107-gsk12o.html http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/lonewolf-radio-hoaxer-hack...
- matt_wulfeck 10y ago
  I knew something like this must exist! Thank you. I can't believe there's an entire /8 block dedicated to this. That's like owning a square mile of land in downtown San Francisco.
danjoc 10y ago
Ingenu has an SDK/dev kit available. It's a little on the expensive side, and patent encumbered. A bunch of wireless execs trying to disrupt the wireless industry. The LoRa WAN stuff is cheaper and more open, but seems more primitive. All of it is low bandwidth, but how much bandwidth do you really need for "large pepperoni and 2 liter pepsi"? Same goes for all these 140 char messages flying around.

vacri 10y ago

Your pizza joint isn't running their own server (which is most probably a good thing).

samplatt 10y ago
No, but they probably have a fairly decent small set of expensive failover servers for their web site and customer databases, and will almost certainly have a desktop to communicate the days' financials back to head office in a different state/country. In a world where mesh networking is a reality, when a franchisee buys into a chain business it will come with local networking hardware, part-and-parcel with the branded window-signs and soul-destroying uniforms. In my personal little dream-future, anyway :-)
- bigiain 10y ago
  Ummm, yeah - so you've never worked for the hospitality industry huh? (You tell em "$5/month isn't an appropriate webhosting plan for your online ordering!" and they say "Yeah, I can get it for $12/year with GoDaddy!")

mahyarm 10y ago

Mesh networking has theoretical limits that guarantee that normal internet will beat it by a mile.

3131s 10y ago
I am curious to learn more about this if anyone has a recommendation for a paper or two to read.
- einarvollset 10y ago
  This is probably the most widely cited one: http://circuit.ucsd.edu/~massimo/Papers_files/Capacity-Physical-TIT.pdf http://circuit.ucsd.edu/~massimo/Papers_files/Capacity-Physi...
gravypod 10y ago
Mesh networking just revolves around the idea that computers can be linked. If mesh networks have theoretical limits then the internet has them as well. Mesh networking is a collection of multiple technologies in its ideal form.
- woah 10y ago
  This gets at the heart of the matter: "mesh networking" means a bunch of different things. It started out meaning a network composed of mobile devices with omnidirectional antennas, running an ad-hoc routing protocol. This is probably why OP said it has limits, as such a network will be slow and lose a lot of bandwidth with every hop. These days, it's mostly a phrase used when people are excited about networking technologies.
- lrem 10y ago
  Mesh networks have some practical limits they are unlikely to overcome, like crossing an ocean, or any sufficiently large unpopulated area. You do need expensive dedicated infrastructure for that.
  - 10y ago